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Now, as we are all aware, Zoophilia is not something regarded too highly in the public eye, and that's not without reason. We are portrayed as sick, demented, sexual deviants, who have no desire to love... only to make love, and even that is something that is skewed. Though it is entirely wrong to think that of most, or even all of us, it can be partially true. Though there are the vast majority who truly love animals alongside the pleasure, there are those who are in if for only one purpose ; Sex. But to the point. Lately, and in fact more and more lately, I've been hearing people whip insults around at each other. (Two teenagers on the bus today for example, [since my car broke down] were just throwing little insults back at each other, in a harmless sense of course... To them anyways. They started running out of ideas, and before long were starting to call out things like "Dog F***er", "Horse raper", just anything they could think of involving a human and an animal). That really hurts. I'm sitting right next to these idiots and trying so hard not to slap each of them a hundred times. So, is it really that the public is starting to see this as even more of a horrid way of living? As I said earlier, I know that it's not something held too highly in the public eye, but for it to be on par with some of the things people call each other... It really makes you wonder. Well, am I the only one with incompetents around him, or have any of you encountered a similar situation?*Note: Sorry if something similar has been posted before. This is the first I've seen of it. I know there are many other topics regarding violence or hate against us, but so far have seen nothing of this nature.
QUOTE (XxXWhite_WolfXxX @ Apr 7 2006, 08:14 PM) So, is it really that the public is starting to see this as even more of a horrid way of living? I think it merely has to do with the fact there is an increasing awareness of the fact that some people have sex with animals. It makes people think of it a little more often than what was previously common, and anything that is on people's minds could be suitable for an insult. Insults are usually not very well thought-out, and what the insult would literally mean, does not tend to matter much to those who use it.Some people might use the theme of animal sex in insults and jokes, because they are uncomfortable with the topic. My brother was joking about sex with animals a lot, and it was always just because it made him uneasy to think of it, so he'd joke about it, to lessen the stigma in his own mind.
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Look at the source of those insults. Two teenagers. We are taught as we grow up, that loving animals ends at a master pet relationship. But as we grow older, we can appreciate the animals as viable companions. And to some extent, lovers.I'm new to this, as more than one shot deal. But I'm a little unnerved at the sensitivity at alot of people here posting about the lifestyle of loving your animal friend, as a mate and being hurt by the world around us, but asking others to share pictures of themselves with their mates and partners and toys. I also see where there is alot of talk and granted, it is only experience but it's there - of having sex with other people's animals. I'm still not sure what to think of things, though I came here because of people posting about their Zeta toys. What they were like, if they were worth the money etc. I think, if your going to feel very strongly about a subject that is taught to the majority of the world as 'wrong' or 'sick' you have to be able to take those random insults with a few grains of salt. Given that it was a couple of teens, just ignore them. They will come up with anything that they find 'not super cool' to tease each other about. I seriously doubt either of them has seriously considered what caring about an animal on a much deeper level is really like, and the want to be with that animal sexually. They didn't use the term "Animal lover!" They were keeping it on a very crude level for a purpose. To make each other feel ashamed for what they were being called.I think it's just how our world evolves away from very strict social taboos. Slowly.
i think that asking for bestiality to become accepted is just not realistic. There are some things that (and yes im going to say it) shouldnt be accepted as a part of everyday life. There are things that are kept at home, and should not be made a political issue. Its just as likely that those kids were throwing around the terms "faggot" "homo" and "queer". You cant expect everyone to be accepting of your lifestyle, nor should you. Although it would be nice to be able to openly share your lifestyle with like minded people, it is still a form of sexuality, and therefore will not be welcomed by many.
The gentlemen to which you refer are also somewhat polymorphous perverse at that stage of experience...they never know when they might suddenly have an erotic rush just from wrestling around with the family dog. Which are 'inappropriate feelings' so now he has to socialize it away by potty-fying it.That is to associate it with bad negative poopoo bad sex statements and jokes. According to the very thorough and carefully done Shere Hite Report on Male Sexuality; 50% of all males that answered the survey (they did take a sufficient sample size too) reported some kind of sexual contact with an animal sometime in their lives. I dont have the numbers here, but some significant portion develop strong bonds with the animal they are having sexual contact with. (I know I know, this may come as a shock to many at the forum)My point? Both these guys are probably giving hand jobs to Bowser at home.SDPS Yes I know it sounds Freudian but he was right about some stuff!PSS IN Canada their is an expression "Stop F**ken the dog and get back to work"or "Its a great job, we work in the morning and f**k the dog all afternoon!" When the teen said "dog f**ker", the first thing I thought was actually he was calling the other guy lazy. We use it that way in Canada too. It sounds nasty in a way, but in another way its like saying thats the first thing ANYONE would want to do when the boss is out of sight. "Weee! the boss is gone lets F**k the dog!") Not exactly a loving attitude towards dog sex, but an erotic, if unstated element to it.I may have heard it as 'screw the pooch' too. Anyone here of these expressions?Not to be disrespectful of the awful experience you had in the bus, ive had some truly scary moments facing down teens over the word faggot or 'Thats SO gay!" But I wouldnt dream of trying to make them understand their thouoghtlessness regards negative attitudes about animal love. These days, they can (sometimes) be cowed into shame if they are called on i the gay issue: forget the zoo though.Great dialogue so far!
Offtopic,Where i have some similar feelings about the need for visibility, at least at this stage of social development, i take umbrage that anyone should have to be in a shared public space and listen to hateful talk because we shouldnt expect that everyone should have to like ours or anyones lifestyle. Would you find it acceptable to hear "C***sucking wh*re? How about just the complete wholesale degradation of women by just using that word as a put down: "Pshh Dude, You are such a WOMAN"(Everything weak and pathetic) How about if they just referred to women in a manner that wasnt even meant to be directly negative but is still total objectification of women: "Im get me some pussy toNIGHT!"(gash, poontang, etc) Ok between friends in their back yard - totally socially unacceptable in public where I HAVE to hear it. And there are laws about it. Disturbing the peace and using inciteful and hateful speech. As I say, Im uncertain (at least for now) about the usefulness of trying to gain publica cceptance of zoo related activities. Im much more of the spirit that there needs to be stronger "Mind Your own Business !" laws(Tolerance of things that are none of your business). But nobody should have to listen to abusive talk about any group of people even if you dont belong to the group. what I may have done, is either confronted them on the potty-mouth or told the bus driver. Ive shut down a LOT of idiots this way in my time. (I could write a book on the drek Ive heard on busses). And I dont plan to stop.SD
Wow,This is really a tough subject since there really is no fix. I do agree that there are things best kept private and anything about sex is one of them. While with your close friends you can talk about anything and create bonds that allow a certain amount of free speech. Public consideration needs to be on everyones minds as we go out into the world. I believe that a constant concern whether or not we offend someone else should be taught to all children so that they grow up compasionate and considerate of others. This never changes the free speach ethics but allows us to have a very deliberate and open dialouge with our peers. During public conversations the lanquage needs to be presentable. Name calling has always been one of my pet (cute) peeves and I do not allow it in my house nor encourage it in any way form or fashion. The best solution to this global issue of common sense is teaching the children how to communicate, using all of the people skills they can. This will allow them to become very responsible adults. Name calling just makes for bad manners. I do have a tendency to confront others when they are using extremely bad manners. I often do this by telling them that the lanquage they are using is offending me. This rarely changes the way they speak, but they do move away from me when doing it. So I quess I have made a difference in this very large world.
No Comment Necessary! (the audience gasps!) 10 from me!SDPS Anubisgirl had some great points too, but I think I need to share the thread alittle
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i absolutley agree singingdog, just because it happens doesnt make it right. And honeybee had some great points as well.the fact that they were teenagers says a lot. Teenagers do that shit for attention, and because it makes them feel cool. When i was a teenager not too long ago i thought that by being obnoxious and annyoing i was truly the coolest and funniest shit on earth. They grow up, they learn, and in 2 years from now wont be using that language. Yes, it is ignorant and harmful, but think about where it's coming from, socially its probably not that much to be concerned about
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Offtopic,Yeah, those were the points that anubisgirl made that settled me down a little too. I actually dont spring into action on the first abusive word I hear, unless its particularly odious, its when I'm like "Ooo-kay thats like 5 times now, Im burnt!" Sometimes I shock the shite out of em:I'll be on a bus and some teen will be goin' "Thats so gay" No dude really That is SOOO Gay"and bby the third time I'll go:Me: "Excuse me I dont mean to interrupt but you keep saying that 'X' is "so gay" and , well, I'll tell you, IM gay, and it just had me wondering."Teens:(Stammering now) ...umm..ahh...we didnt aaah MEAN it THAT way ummm..." Me: Well how DID you mean it because, as you might expect it Im naturally curious when someone starts shouting out about how "Gay" something is and what, precisely, they mean by that."Teens:(Stammering more; beginning to just about panic) ...umm..ahh...we didnt aaah MEAN it THAT way ummm...!" OK ...Relax relax! I know what you meant. I wont drag you all the way through this. But please, if you want to avoid this kind of situation i recommend you find some other more appropriate word. Yes this backfired once: this kid just went off on me, bus driver didnt seem to care, other passengers buried their noses in their books and newspapers as this kid called me a faggot and saying how vile I was. He said he was German (german-american) and a nazzi and that he wanted to destroy my kind. I laughed at him with gentle amusement, and remained eye-locked. Acted totally non-chalant though I was nervous. And then just gave him the classic that always sticks with em. "Wow! You seem to have a lot of strong, strong, I mean STRONG feelings about that.........I wonder why that is?" He lost it and cursed me in German then asked me with contempt if I knew what that meant. So I told him. Which just about broke his spirit, but by then he had to get off the bus cursing me in German as he went out the back door.I thought it was fun. A little scary, but fun. I was going to complain to the Bus Service for complete lack of intervention...but...whatever...almost all of them do...maybe the driver was a nazzi too.SDPS Yes I do know how to spell Nazzi, but the censor program wont let me use it!! Im sure the reason is to avoid the use of inflammatory language. Like calling somebody one "You nazzi!" (I cant HELP but hear that in Cartman's voice) Is this then therefore ok to use if I dont actually call someone a Nazzi, or Im I going against the spirit of the law by following ony the letter? And what AM I supposed to say "He called himself an ethically-challenged European who believed in the ethos of National Socialism and the elimination of certain minorities in their presence owing to a fervid belief in Human Eugenics circa 1930' and 40's...but not in so many words... you know...the word starting in 'N' ending in 'I' with the abbreviation for 'A'ri'Z'ona in the middle?"It must have really been a problem with how people were using it. Are we allowed to "beat the censor" by spelling differences? I'll guess we will see. SD
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I've also noticed reading threads everywhere.. how intelligent alot of you guys are. And.. thanks for the compliment.. I blush.
Dog F****rs exist. It has nothing to do with dog lovers. I hate dog f*****s. A dog f****r is somebody that can't find anything else, so they abuse their pet !! A dog lover.....shares themselves with their pet....in the same way two human lovers do....with love, and respect.
I'm sure I left you guys out in the open with the 'teenagers' bit. I wasn't referring to 13-14 years olds but more along people who are about to graduate high school. I know they have a better understanding of these things and therefore can effectively use them against people better. Not that that was the point though. I doubt they knew anything about me. Anubis, you had said they were teenagers, and in so are of course very immature. I agree with that wholeheartedly. I realize they are just these little brats who've yet to experience anything outside their mommy's care and wallet. It's just that, as I said, they weren't the youngest bunch. Probably still stupid, but further nearing adulthood. Basically, they've already set their minds with what they believe to be good and what is wrong, and so know that it's something that's bad. If it had been 8th or 9th graders, I might have turned around and given them each a talk... they're still impressionable enough then. You said they were trying to make each other feel bad, by keeping it on a very crude level. That's exactly what they were doing though, and thus means they know that it's a crude activity or lifestyle choice. And Singing Dog... I actually had to crack up when I heard that you use phrases like that in Canada. I've never heard of any of them. Again though, I do agree with the points you're bringing up. All of you really. You've all got very valid points. There was a mother in here who claimed to teach her children about this kind of thing (the insults) and I do truly admire that. More parents should. Thanks for the comments everyone. It's always good to see outside views on these things.
I think the more people talk about it in any way is good for us. The more u hear about something it will start bothering you less and less. Just getting it in the open is a start as far as I am consirned. Look how people use to look at the gay people. Now in some states thay can get married. Just gotta give it time. The internet has helped alot. It lets people see things at a younger age when there more open minded.
I was going to raise the point about people using "gay" as an insult in order to compare, but it's already been mentioned. A lot of kids use gay in a derogatory way so I don't think it's much different than referring to sex with animals. Maybe it just seems that way because homosexuality is more socially accepted now and zoophilia is illegal in the vast majority of countries.These people are completely ignorant and intolerant of anyone different from them... And in my opinion, possibly quite insecure with their own sexuality. Maybe they have seen videos on the internet and were arroused by it
I have an old guy at work. Everytime I see him, and he's just sitting doing nothing, I say, "What are you doing you old sorry [EMAIL REMOVED - USE THE PRIVATE MESSAGE SYSTEM] ?" His reply is, "I'm just [EMAIL REMOVED - USE THE PRIVATE MESSAGE SYSTEM] the dog, that is all, nothing else to do but to F#@k the dog. The same thing you do. You F#@k the dog everyday." Only if he knew what I really am.. Boy, what a dream come true that would. Nothing else to do, but to F#@k the dog. Sure would be nice to stay home and not have to work...
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this is the problem with all alternative lifestyles, gay which was mentioned earlier, People make fun of the things that they don't understand, which I wholly understand is apart of their coping with it all, And yes I find it very insulting, I know cause thats the exact way my freinds were well actually still are. But it is unfortunatly somthing that we will have to deal with just the same as all other lifestylers....Ignore it , forget it and dont do itthanx for your time
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i think the problem is that anything that's slightly out of the norm, people find it insane and have to either make fun of it or laugh at it.as humans, we like routine, we don't like change, and we want things the way they are.naturally, sex with animals is wrong in the publie eye. but then again, so is sex in general. It's just been so hyped up by the media that it means practically nothing. the world is sex obsessed-be it with animals or not.-shrugs-I just think private lives should be left at home, and whatever you're into, you're into. end of story.
QUOTE (dogfood @ Apr 9 2006, 11:26 PM) These people are completely ignorant and intolerant of anyone different from them... And in my opinion, possibly quite insecure with their own sexuality. Maybe they have seen videos on the internet and were arroused by it yeah, other people are definitely jealous!
When people say things like that, they may still be reflecting public attitudes and opinions, but they generally don't envision the subject of the insult when saying it (the notable exception being 'fag' or 'gay', I think). I doubt that they used it in any way worse than other swearwords or insults. I wouldn't be more paranoid about that than I would be with someone using the word c--- around me because I'm a woman.(Hi, btw. This is my first post! )
QUOTE (XxXWhite_WolfXxX @ Apr 7 2006, 08:14 PM) They started running out of ideas, and before long were starting to call out things like "Dog F***er", "Horse raper", just anything they could think of involving a human and an animal). That really hurts. Hi dude, thanks for posting. This is an intresting opinion.What i would like to say is that Kids will be kids, they ill-informed, immature and lack any degree of realism. I am not anti-kids and i am not paiting them with one big stereotypical brush, but studies show that kids will pick up things off TV, at school around peers, from parents and other social institutions and in one way or another pay out devaince. A man or women having sex with an animals is very deviant in our culture, and just like being disabled, gay, deformed, a woman or different from the white - male - heterosexual who is into girls, sport, beer and their mates - we are all going to get paid out. I hate talking about me, but as a gay male there has been so much shite about me and my people. Just learn to build a chip on your shoulder and get over it - no point slapping them and getting a law suit. Just remember one thing, boys will be boys and paying out the abnormal is cool - and calling someone a pig fucker, horse fucker, dog fucker or whatever is just a cool way of paying out a mate - just the same it is when some calls me a fudge packer, faggot or dirty HIV infested dickhead! Just put it down to their ignorance and get on with your life....One last thought. It will be intresting to see these boys in ten years time when they are opening up to their sexual desires - it would be ironic if they are into beastilaity.. But is that just a cliche.Take care dude
I thank you all for all the posts. I hadn't expected this to get much attention, or as much as it has anyways. You all have some great points being made, many of them very simlilar, though neverthess accurate. And DragonBlooded, thanks, and Welcome to Beast Forum!
Hope your not tring to say the me using the term gay is a bad thing. I was just saying that is is more accepted now that it ever has been. If you think the term gay is bad befor you judge me you should know I am bi-sexual.
actually michk926 I am freinds with alot of gays (I dont know why). And the majority of them prefer gay as I am sure tim may agree but I cannot speak for him. by the way dont worry so much about what others think of you cause their opinion is only their opinionoh yeah i am so cool
This is a great topic and thank you for starting it.My position is slightly different than some of yours. I think that we all occasionally take ourselves too seriously. I think that we tend to internalize comments made by other members of society as it may strike a specific chord with us.I don't believe in hate for any reason but I do believe that teenagers, especially some uneducated teenagers, subject others to their irrational fears and misunderstaning through use of their words.I happen to be a gay male and I occasionally will use a phrase like "Thats So Gay". Now just because I used the phrase, doesn't mean I detest someone. It's just a statement of opinion, not fact.If you felt unnerved or insulted on the bus, I think that you should take it from whence it comes and realize that there will always be ignorance and/or fear of the unknown. Don't let it throw you too much and always know that for every person that is immature, there are ten that are willing to help and care greatly about your feelings.The other great thing to remember is you can always return to this forum and know that there are many like-minded people and you can always derive support, nurturing and understanding from those of us that care enough to reply:)
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Insulting - is fo rme to put in the bucket together with horse rippers. It happened here two years ago, and some zoos found it was too much of a good thing, as there was a law outcast agains us that contained penalties from the 1600's and much more. We gave them reply. The govt, has shown much interest in getting a better overview of the schene, and they no know much more about us. Also the press is about to change attitude. That does not mean that they accept us, but they are about to learn that we are not all horse rippers. Journalists are humans too. If they get ann oportunity that noone else in their business had, to talk to one who feels himself accused on a wrong argument, aned can tell him about a life that is so hidden as our emotional lifes are. They go for it!The govt is beggining to learn how complex the aspect of animal love is, and more reports than ever are on their way. Some of them are 100 year old stuff bottled in new bottles, but there are also more openminded research being made.We will never get 100% acceptance. Imagine a registered partnership between a dog and a human. The human partner dies, and the dog inherits 1.000.000 $ The dog can not fill out tax bills, can not make investments, like humans. They can not vote Lassie for president, andmuch Therefore animals will not be able to get human rights in the way we have them. We can hope for and work for more tolerance, and a more nuanced view. Tell then that when a heterosexual man rapes a woman, it does not mean that all heterosexual men are so. This is something most people understand. It gets triggier to explain that an animal-human relationship can be anything but sexual abuse, it takes patience and a good way of explaining. It works!There will always be insults, against us, against anyone. Teenagers as stated above are fast in firing insults. They learn to stop that when they begin to work in a ompany, as most companies do not accept such. They may learn it the hard way, it may cause them getting fired more than once, but they learn. I feel the educational sector does too little to educate young folks in a proper way of communication.Is this because most parents leave the upbringing of their children to "professional adults" who do upbringing for living? These, speciallly teachers ofen never saw a normal job from inside, theuir whole experience, from their own education, to their work, was made in the environment of the educational sector.Companies know better. They always have some unpopular work to do, and youngsters who cant behave get those jobs, being told the correlation between their behaviour and the unpopular work. Or get fired. Many years ago, i worked in a company, where we had some young people. One day, the director had a little accident, he parked his large volvo in front of th ecompany, but he was too fast, and the fron wheels ended up trough the wallm in the men's room. The teenagers (between 18-20) thoght this was sooo funny, until the boss just told them "It is my car, and it is my company!" in a tone that could not be misunderstood. That, and other similiar situations learned them how to behave. It just a part of ubringing of young people.
Insults only have power if you, the insulted, gives them that power.Shrug them off and they mean nothing. If anything the insulter tends to feel dumb because of a lack of response he/she thought he/she would get.
I don't get insulted by deliberate insults. They're just too stupid to care about, and very easy for me to ignore.I usually feel insulted when I hear someone express a negative opinion regarding something that is very important to me. Fortunately, it does not happen very often, but if I encounter someone who expresses unfair negative opinions regarding cows, I tend to take it very personal. Not only on behalf of the cows, but also for my own sake.Truth is: I adore cows, I admire them. They love to be cuddled, they love attention, they're sweet and affectionate companions. I have been with horses, dogs and cows, so I can easily compare, and I've not found that the dogs or horses should be more intelligent than the cows. Not at all. You can teach cows a lot of things, but some people just never give them the chance or opportunity.So when someone seriously believes that a cow would be less intelligent than a dog or a horse, when someone doesn't believe that a cow is as capable of love and affection as a horse or a dog is, I feel insulted on behalf of the cows.But also, by insinuating that the ones I admire and love so deeply are not worthy of love and admiration, the insult gets aimed right at my deepest feelings. So cows is a very sensitive issue for me.
QUOTE (Wirehair @ Apr 13 2006, 09:03 AM) They can not vote Lassie for president, andmuch Therefore animals will not be able to get human rights in the way we have them. such a shame, i could a much better job!
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sorry, i couldn't resist. i know this is a serious topic.if the way the media portrays zoophilia is any indicator of the direction this is moving, then i say it is a positive one. just this season on Boston Legal, there was a man who was in love with a cow (maybe it was a horse-definitely not a dog). his wife wanted to sue him for a divorce on those grounds. his lifestyle was under scrutiny in the court room. i thought he faired very well. i was stunned. there was even a comment made by one of the senior law partners about his past activities with a camel. i thought the episode was quite interesting.on another show this season, House MD, a young man presents in the ER wanting some depro prevara (sp?) to diminish his arousal of cows. after several visits, the doctor disovers that the 18 yr old is really attracted to his mother/step mother but he is ashamed and afraid to admit it. he thinks it is more acceptable to be attracted to cows!!!
I have seen and heard similar situations but like everyone else issaying... consider the source. Teens will throw insults at each otherfor attention and they realize that when it "gets someones goat", theykeep doing it and since they run out of things to say, they start the "mother"insults or worse...Actually I think its very laughable because it would seem that kids canbe more vicious than even most adults.. I also agree that the insults were probably being tossed around due tosociety coming to realize that the lifestyle exists... perhaps one of themactually was zoo and the other found out but again, it was only insults andnot actual physical harm being done which also shows a little more toleranceto it than what used to be.In the town I used to live in many years ago, I was known as "Horse F****r"but you know what?... some of the people who called me that only did so behindmy back and we would still drink beer and go out and have fun together... sothey must not have thought it too bad.Usually I would just ignore the insults or would come back with a better replythat would generally make them shut up and think a little Anyhow... its bad when things like that happen... not just the zoo insults but allinsults in general... they will learn as they grow and if not, they will feel bysomeone who won't take it from them.The main problem with society's younger generation is that most of the parentswho's kids do this sort of thing are not really caring parents and don't correcttheir kids like they need or should. It is in the bringing up plus, with the waythe agencies say you can't repremand your kids, its no wonder they are runningover the parents and doing as they please... in my day, I would have gottenmy arse whooped really good for insulting people like that and I would have beenmade to appologize right to their faces... that is what needs done today...
Couldn't have said it better myself InLuvWithEwe... I seriously think that parents are just losing track of anything and everything that their kids get into. When they do things like that, to insult or otherwise, it needs to be recognized and they should be punished accordingly. And not that slap on the wrist crap either,a good beating, just as I would have gotten. (I'm not saying go beat children...because that's wrong... So don't get the wrong idea. Just when it's called for and in a semi-humane manner)
I'm not easaly offended so it doesn't really bother me. If it becomes personal however, then it's a different matter.
QUOTE (XxXWhite_WolfXxX @ Apr 13 2006, 09:07 PM) Couldn't have said it better myself InLuvWithEwe... I seriously think that parents are just losing track of anything and everything that their kids get into. When they do things like that, to insult or otherwise, it needs to be recognized and they should be punished accordingly. And not that slap on the wrist crap either,a good beating, just as I would have gotten. (I'm not saying go beat children...because that's wrong... So don't get the wrong idea. Just when it's called for and in a semi-humane manner) I'm certain you don't mean that children should be 'beat' in order to give them punishment.But a spanking, or other form of physical contact that teaches them that something they have done is unnacceptable is better than being told (by someone who doesn't know you, your family, your child - how to raise your child) that you cannot punish them anymore.. Certainly children need to learn concequences, without fear of abuse, or serious beatings. On a side note, I've been watching some of the shows discussing Michael Jackson's upbringing. They really screwed him up BAD. THey went far too overboard with the punishments and beatings.There is a point when it becomes too much and it isn't teaching the child anything but their parents hate them.Back on track - Even if it's degrading in their eyes, even if it's an insult, in the eyes of children (Those teens) to call someone a dog f'r, there is a reason for it. I dont' think it's because they are necessarily ignorant or uneducated. On the contrary, I believe they have been taught that touching your pet in a sexual manner is unnacceptable. I think they are doing what they have been taught, to reject certain behaviors and as a norm it's illegal - what are they doing wrong by teasing each other with something that is illegal? They could be saying.. "You store robber! You ugly rapist!" Just because they say something doesn't mean it's true.Also,You mentioned that they are already set in their ways about the subject. I don't think they are. Lots of people find other things in life much later than high school. They even learn to approach new and old subjects with a new understanding of the world around them. Such as, looking at the subject of loving an animal on a deeper level that includes lovemaking - with a maturity that is only gained by experiencing life. They haven't yet.. they are under the protection of their parents, but will soon be learning some difficult life lessons. And, I think our society really has it's priorities messed up. Yah, it's the parents job to raise the child.. when? These days you can barely survive if you don't hve both parents working full time jobs. Any more, jobs don't want to hire full time, they don't want to give benefits for health care and insurance.. and they like to cut back alot when you need your money the most in order to survive. When you work all the hours you need to, your working LONG hours.. and in my experience those jobs are a bit of a distance away from home. Drive time - work hours, lunch break, more work hours, drive time home, shopping time to get the supplies you need to live, doing errands for paying bills etc.. and making dinner... WHEN do you have time to sit down with your kid and really get to know them, talk about what is going on in their life, and sit down and talk with them about something that happened. (That you weren't there for? How did you find out? DID you even find out about half the stuff your kid does?)It's a difficult time for humans to be able to accomplish all the stuff they need to get done. We are rushing around with our heads cut off yelling at each other because we aren't doing what each other thinks we ought to have been doing and trying to keep our species going. I'm sure the issue is due to too many little factors to really blame it on any specific thing, other than... "It just isn't accepted yet, and if you DO come out of the dark about it, your going to get persecuted for it. So just hold tight and wait things out"Don't be hurt by it.. let them live in ignorance and you can go on about your day knowing you know something special about life. That some animals like having sex with their human friends just as much if not more, than we do with them. Case in point, someone posted about their dog growling at them and keeping them pinned down until he was finished with them!If this can happen.. and the dog is peachy after sex? Then it isn't necessarily a human always forcing themselves on an animal. The bad thing about humans wanting rights for their animals, is that Animals can't express themselves like humans, nor are they as attached to a single being for their entire lives. It isn't coded into them. How many dogs bust out of the house or yard and go on a sex spree!? How many dogs do they 'run around with' during that freedom run? Would they leave their canine companion who they also try to get things on with at home while they go looking for love where the grass is greener? Animals aren't as attached as humans are. As a general statement. Of course there will be exceptions.. but I don't see things changing all at once or really soon. Sorry for the long, probably confusing post. It's way way past my bedtime but I thought I'd check in first.
[QUOTE=Anubisgirl,Apr 14 2006, 11:29 AM] [QUOTE=XxXWhite_WolfXxX,Apr 13 2006, 09:07 PM] Couldn't have said it better myself InLuvWithEwe... I seriously think that parents are just losing track of anything and everything that their kids get into. When they do things like that, to insult or otherwise, it needs to be recognized and they should be punished accordingly. And not that slap on the wrist crap either,a good beating, just as I would have gotten. (I'm not saying go beat children...because that's wrong... So don't get the wrong idea. Just when it's called for and in a semi-humane manner) I wrote the next paragraph in this letter last and realized that it more responsibly belonged at the beginning:"Ok Ive gone bonkers here...Im not in the least bit contrary about this. I love the contributions. Im the type to get into the nitty gritty on certain issues, and I dont want anyone to mistake my 'tone' of post to reflect in anyway at them. When i start get going The opinions and referencing start flowing. Im contesting a philosophy against the another philosophy. Thats where my attention is as I write this. Corporal punishment is unnecessary. Plenty of individuals of all walks, plenty of cultures around the world, plenty of animal 'owners' have raised wonderful children and animals without ever having to resort to ritual pain infliction. Spanking may work, just as electric shocks can be used to make rats do the fandango works, but its not necessary. People poo-poo modern child rearing theory, and perhaps a good chunk of it is dung! But the consensus of most fields of science that inquire into this subject(and that range is vast!) is that corporal punishment is unnecessary. Lots of parents are sensitive to this issue. I dont blame them. Im against any corporal punishment but I dont say anything to parents who are being pretty mild about it - which seems to be the majority - at least in public. In short; it just doesnt work. People, especially parents, will often closely model their own parents and how their parents raised them. Tradition, and the expectations of others that we follow it, make it hard to adapt to techniques which dont seem to fit in with local life.There are those salt of the earth folkoric sayings that people turn to when frustrated with a child.Like: "Nothing a good beating(spanking) wouldnt help". But they really dont want to help. What they want is to instill a 'healthy respect for authority' in someone who is rubbing it the wrong way. The Medium (pain) is the message. Its not "Dont do that thing again". It becomes " You crossed my authority" its largely where a lot of buried resentment of kids to their parents lies. The other one is hypocrisy, which is really really bad to have if your punishing over that issue ie doing what you punished the kid over. But they come from the same playbook on how people used to treat their animals as a matter of course. Pretty roughly, rudely and thoughtlessly, and definitely using corporal punishment as [b] the means [/i] of behavior inducement. Whip cracking...hell the term 'carrot and stick' comes from horse training. Its been well demonstrated that actual 'punishment' is unnecessary. Corporal Punishment; that is: ritually induced pain for 'corrective' purposes...I say 'ritually' because it happens after the 'bad' behavior, this turns the act into a ritual act meant to stand in for 'painful consequences' that didnt occur at the time that whatever was bad was done.I think it comes from the same playbook on how woman used to be 'handled' by their husband. The very notion that a wife is just one of a man's menagerie that he 'husbands' (animal husbandry) tells a lot. And though the the phrase 'rule of thumb' didnt actually apply to the thickness of a stick acceptable to beat your wife with, there's plenty of 'true spirit' behind it. Arnt we glad (and I do mean we , even as a man) that has become socially unacceptable if not culturally yet. I think it comes from the same playbook of how workers are treated around the world. Up till close to the middle of the last century employers in America regularly beat their employees for 'bad behavior' Then there were the African men and women, and the playbook was printed with detailed specifics on 'proper' corporal punishment to acheive best results, amongst all kinds of other 'fascinating' 'helpful' chapters from their care and maintainance manuals . (To see this in a very imortant very intense film see "Mandingo." )Violence works. (Spanking, in my books at least, is ultimately violence.) The above illustrates this all too well. But it is also unecessary. Thats been clearly illustrated too. I hope that people will ask themselves and think about for a few days whether or not hitting is truly necessary. and if you feel that it must be, then problems probably run deeper than even pain conditioning can help or any 'method' from a book. The problem is now particular to the people involved and getting some trained help (priest to AA counselor) would probably yield far better results.Plenty of great people were spanked as kids too, sometimes it may indeed be harmless to helpful. But all to often it isnt. Its a risky enterprise.Keep on sewing the thread!SDPS Im not too hard to knock off my perch you know!
Anubisgirl said: The bad thing about humans wanting rights for their animals, is that Animals can't express themselves like humans, nor are they as attached to a single being for their entire lives. It isn't coded into them. How many dogs bust out of the house or yard and go on a sex spree!? How many dogs do they 'run around with' during that freedom run? Would they leave their canine companion who they also try to get things on with at home while they go looking for love where the grass is greener?Animals aren't as attached as humans are. They are deeply coded for loyalty...moreso than humans in most regards. Humans are monogamous( and were not very good ones either!)...dogs arnt. That doesnt imply weak attachment instinct, just no absolute attachment where sex is concerned. Or food or affection.But this proves my point. So loyal, they still always go home after 'working the neighborhood!' SD
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Well put Singing Dog. They are very loyal creatures, possibly moreso than some humans are... No, Definitely more than some humans are... See people can do these things that dogs can't, and dogs are more than content with that. They could care less about inheriting a hundred thousand dollars, or someone's house. They care about losing their owner though, or the person they love. Tell me, if you lost a distant aunt and got a house out of it...Are you gonna feel very sad for long? You might have loved her, but you just got a house.
It seems that most of us at some time or another are embarrassed by the language that some other people in the community use in public. Like the often used American expression mother f**ker, that is an insult to almost every father or husband on this planet, but it used for entertainment in TV shows and in the movies. So what of something that is a little bit left of the mainstream of thought. Like most small minds any comment that gets a reaction is worth the effort. Just because we love our friends does not make us any different from the rest of the world it is just the perceived thought of something different that upsets people with very narrow minds.
I tend not to give too much credence to opinion of society as a whole. For the most part the average person is pretty uninformed about much of what goes on, and their opinions show that. I also don't get insulted too easily, I think that society has gotten so politically correct that you best not say anything in public because it's going to be an insult to someone. As for those two...just think about all the stupid things we all did as teenagers.
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That's a given, that people are massively uninformed that is, or wrongly informed anyways. They don't quite realize the complexities of many of the things that allows cultures to be so varied. If it's atypical it's automatically something that should be outlawed. That in itself disturbs me. Even as a teenager, [lets say 18 for safety's sake] I was extraordinarily open to new ideas and concepts about anything really. Upon realizing who I was and what the community was like, I instantly opened up almost fully to new things everywhere. I think it's fair to say, Zoophilia opened more than one door to me. Maybe that should be something adressed to people, rather than being taught that uniformity opens those doors.
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