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Ok... after thinking about it for some great time, and after my previous post about the man who "raped" and injured the sheep... I am going to ask this of everyone...It would seem that there are a great many zoosexual people who would like to have their rights recognized and they would at least like to be understood and have even a minority respect. There are many that would love to be able to have the freedom from oppression of the public and legal system, and they would like for people to stop thinking of them as "sick monsters who prey on innocence".This is my proposal to every zoo everywhere...Without always coming up with reason "Why Not To" or reasons "Why We Can't" do something to become a more understood and respected part of society as simply having an alternative sexual preference and lifestyle...How about we all come up with reason "Why We CAN" and why we Should do something to make the public see us as something other than "sick" or demented people.When I was in school, my teachers would always say:"Don't say Can't, because you will never know if you can or not until you try".I am doing this in the hopes that perhaps one day, some how, we can find a way to prove once and for all to the public that Zoophilia is NOT about the abuses and suffering that is always portrayed by the ignorant and the media... that Zoophilia is more loving and caring than even Human/human relationships... that Zoophiles are NOT the monsters in the nightmares of the ASPCA and PETA.So... how about everyone start posting in this thread all the thoughts they have on "Helping to make Zoophilia an understood and recognized way of life" instead of posting all the reason why you won't or can't...As long as people continue to "Think" it is a lost or hopeless cause... it WILL be.So I ask you... how about we all put effort together and come up with thoughts that could "Help The Cause"...Someone that has been e-mailing me in regards to this has some very good ideas and points and is all for helping to make the cause a worth while campagne.Think of it... if it wasn't for advocates of certain causes, we would not have most of the rights we have now. Because of reasons "Why We Should", we now have rights for women, rights for black minorities, rights for gay people, rights for just about everything. Why not make Zoosexual rights one of our freedoms as well.Please... No posts/replies in opposition... I would only like to see posts/replies that can help lead to a possibly benefitial outcome for all of us...Post of Benefit would include:"Your thoughts and feelings as to why you believe zoosexuality is right""Your observations of animals in regards to consent/disapproval""Thoughts on how to approach the subject in society""Ideas on ways to bring the subject into a good light that society will see as good""Ways a zoosexual person can benefit society""Ways that zoosexuality does NOT hinder or affect society as a whole""Ways that the governments and legal systems can recognize the differences between zoosexuality and abusive behaviour""Ideas that can help create laws that are fair for everyones concern including the animal's""Ideas for laws that are similar to the laws human relationship must follow"and so on.....Hopefully this thread won't get lost way back on page 1,556,978,455,,,, hahaha
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I have said this 2 times before - and I will add it as my response to this thread againI'm the one who always comments that zoo is always compared to gay concerning rights - but ironically I find it necesary to use this quote I made which did concern zoo/gay similiarities concerning rights to make my point here... from the second paragraph on I think you will see what my point is QUOTE southflorida Posted: Mar 28 2005, 01:54 PM it's very interesting, as a gay man, to read this thread. I think you answer your own questions just by the nature of your question itself. There is still a huge stigma associated with being gay, thus your using it to compare to another stimatized lifestyle... and hiv was immediately associated back to gays too -if it is sooo popular to be gay -why is it that whenever a contraversial human rights question arises it immediately reverts back to gays??? once out of the woods, it seems the world forgets the struggle - stonewall became infamous (btw -it was NYC not SanFran) because it was a slaughter -we were beaten stoned and even killed -these men (and women) were the epitomy of courage -they took a stance and fought to the death -them against the world -but don't ever forget my friends -you don't get a medal for saving your own ass -you just get to see another day... the struggle was survival -not acceptance. and that applies to hiv too. We watched our best friends die -and we watched our new best friends die too -and then again! and again! and again and again!@#! I'm not so sure you can realize the struggle we have endured -in fact I am certain that you can not -you have zero idea what we have endured -it's sometimes still even inconcievable to ourselves -and then there was the salt in the open wounds -before we could finish grieving we became the scapegoats -I can assure you that it was not fashionable to be gay in the 80's -or even know a gay man -it was like leoparsy -it's so easy to kick a man when he is down... and once again we endured -the gay man is now the lowest hiv contracting minority in the world -but I am here to remind you of the cost...-as of yet there are few witch hunts for zoos as it remains predominately behind closed doors -and so I ask you -are you sure you want to open those doors? are you willing to sustain the casulaties of war? I'll just say this - the circumstances and names have changed - but the song remains the same - the casulaties in the zoo world would be far worse - which is unimaginable in my mind knowing what the casulaties were for gays...-so I ask again - are you willing to sustain the casulaties???
I totally can see your point southy because I am bi and I too know what the gay population went through back in the day.As you will notice though, I did not only compare zoophilia rights to gay rights, I compared it to Women's rights, Black Minority rights, and I can even compare it to the rights of ALL people in ALL societies.To answer your question...Yes, yes yes yes, I am willing to take on the casualties of war, considering I have been doing it since I realized I was zoosexual.I am totally aware that it will be a hard battle and I am not saying we should jump out there and start screaming it from roof tops... what I am saying is that I would like to have some ideas and thoughts that could help us benefit and help make rights for responsible zoophiles a possibility.The only reason zoophilia is ever compared to being gay is because there aren't too many other ways to compare it considering all philias are minority.But... there is only ONE way to become a majority and that is to start by being a minority, get recognized, and then have rights on the books. Until we can all stand up for the rights we all know we have but are not being given, we face worse consequeces by doing nothing at all.By doing nothing at all, what little rights that we do have are slowly being stripped away.
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QUOTE (InLuvWithEwe @ Mar 13 2006, 02:45 AM) But... there is only ONE way to become a majority and that is to start by being a minority, get recognized, and then have rights on the books. Until we can all stand up for the rights we all know we have but are not being given, we face worse consequeces by doing nothing at all.By doing nothing at all, what little rights that we do have are slowly being stripped away. to "get recoginized" is to open that door -there is no such thing as an unseen voice -who is it that will stand there and take the wrath of recoginition? I have to say - it's not going to be me - at least not right now - and my point was that I caution it being you...there is no harm in this thread and soliciting these ideas - probably a good thing - I was just sending a word of caution - they have killed people for less controversial issues...
I have read through what you two have posted. Lots of ideas and deep thoughts.....I am remined of what my brother once said to me."I got your back....WAY BACK HERE." In other words if you want a crusade I'll support you. But I will not do anything to openly help you.I'm not willing to loose MY life over this, and honestly I'm not willing to sacrifice anyone elses life for Zoo rights.Just my 2 cents, because thats all I can afford.
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Did you notice that the world is turning towards more intolerance currently? Extreme religious tendencies make their way, and even rights previously gained by gays are now again being questioned by those who think they are the norms of this world. The idea of InLuv is OK, but the time is wrong. Trough time, society has changed between different ranges of stringency. Most gay rights were obtained trough a transition to less stringency, now society is moving the othe rway. It would be bad timing to start now.We will never be able to turn the minds of those who fight against us. We can give the othes, who reallly do not care too much about us a try. We must catch them by occasion, and provide them with information about what we are. We must just remember that they found us by occasion, and noone reads 100 screens on a subject they found on occasion. The information must be sort and precise. With the option of reading more, but still no 100 pages.That was what made me make my homepage, it deals with more than zoophilia, so that visitors come for other reasons too. In so far my littel private project has been running for one yar now, and I have had no bad experiences about it yet.We can prepare what whould be done and eventually start with small discrete activities, until the world decides a transition to less stringency again. And give it a full go when it comes to that.Meanwhile we can do what we can to prevent folks rise against us. Caught fencehoppers and zoosadists, as well as providing the wrong sort of information is what we can do out best to prevent starting right now.
Yeah, it's Always like this and this is why we will NEVER get the rights and recognition we deserve Not once have I asked anyone anywhere to take ACTION or PART in a "Crusade", Rally, Campaign, or anything ... LOLAll I have asked is for people to help by LENDING ME ............QUOTE "Your thoughts and feelings as to why you believe zoosexuality is right""Your observations of animals in regards to consent/disapproval""Thoughts on how to approach the subject in society""Ideas on ways to bring the subject into a good light that society will see as good""Ways a zoosexual person can benefit society""Ways that zoosexuality does NOT hinder or affect society as a whole""Ways that the governments and legal systems can recognize the differences between zoosexuality and abusive behaviour""Ideas that can help create laws that are fair for everyones concern including the animal's""Ideas for laws that are similar to the laws human relationship must follow"and so on....."Wirehair", actually to the contrary... I have noticed more and more people being lenient toward zoophilia and other forms of sexuality these days. The time is never wrong to make things right. Actually it is the best timing to start now considering every day, more states fall prey to the lies of the SPCA and the accidents like in Washington state and we do need to Educate and Enlighten the public about the REALITY of zoophilia so they will THINK andmaybe open their minds a little more. You say we can never turn the minds of those against us... haven't you noticed that the American Psycholgoical Association already HAS?They once thought the same way as the rest of society but now have come to realize that zoophilia is not a sickness and has since reclassified it to be a "paraphilia" [para means "un-ordinary" and philia means "love"]. Therefore even they have changed their minds on zoophilia and recognize it as simply another form of sexuality [unless it involves harm or self-detriment]Not only the Medical fields but the media as well shows that zoophilia is being more and more tolerated...Sudan man forced to 'marry' goathttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4748292.stmFirst Comes Gay Marriage then Comes Bestiality in Massachusettshttp://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/nov/05111703.htmlAnd these are only two of several articles I have found... All of the people here in BF at one time or another has told the reasons why they think it is right to be zoophilic, the reasons they love their pet partners... they have even posted videos of them personally yet when someone askes for a little idea, everyone takes the offensive... LOLEveryone says they are so afraid of being hurt [or killed] because of this lifestyle... yet everyone is here in beastforum. Beastforum is a "Community of Zoophiles", so that alone is already taking a step in the right direction..... ... just look at how many members you have! Very impressive!... and that alone can help in the long run in regards to statistics.No one is going to get hurt or killed over any of this because no one is going to be giving real names or showing faces. All I am asking for is IDEAS of how we CAN get recognized in a peaceful, sensible manner that will make the public think again about the lies they are being told by those who oppose.I am in contact with a person who has the same ideas as I do and would like to start an online community like BF but without pics and vids... he simply wants to make it a "Knowledge Center Adult Forum" for chatting and public enlightenment.Yes "Wirehair", that is what I am talking about..."prepare what [can] be done and .... start with small discrete activities" plus stopping folks rise against us by Educating them in the RIGHT way and by catching "fencehoppers and zoosadists", as well as providing the RIGHT sort of information.People will never understand us if they never hear our side and see the truth and if we don't help to stop the animal abuse that keeps all eyes on us.Now come on... I am not asking anyone to stand by me physically or to take part in a rally... all I would like are more ideas on top of what I have that I... notice the letter "I".... may be able to use to help benefit us all in the long run.Let me do the work, I just want ideas that can help me help us all. The benefits far outway the complications from what I see so far.No opposition... remember ... We already have enough opposition without us opposing each other...
QUOTE (InLuvWithEwe @ Mar 13 2006, 12:23 PM) Now come on... I am not asking anyone to stand by me physically or to take part in a rally... all I would like are more ideas on top of what I have that I... notice the letter "I".... may be able to use to help benefit us all in the long run.Let me do the work, I just want ideas that can help me help us all. The benefits far outway the complications from what I see so far. Ok, so let's take it from that end.First, as I already mentioned, keep the information short and precise, because you can not ecspect "normal" folks to read a lot about things they arre not attentive to. The newspapers like it short and precise too, it will prevent them from editing too much and eventually turn over the contence. Second, the information we provide may not be offending. Reading our howto's, or pictures would turn most against us. This should be kept for those who wants to know more, and they will find us. The information provided to the public could contain some cases of persons who live with their animal, feel free to use my case.Experiencing how folks like us live helps the imagination of the public. Third, who is going to recieve the information. We can never convince the animal rescuers. Then we must do with the rest, who hae not made their minds up yet. Then again, there are some medias that are more serious working as others. Some would see a zoo a strange item, we could show to the public like a goat with two heads. Buy 5 tomatoes and throw. Others would even be able to show us like we are; select the right folks in th emedia world. Your link to the MA case was indeed interesting reading. A follow up on that, as the attitude seems openminded, could be an idea. Fourth, provide information to our own group. Provide information why FH is no good, that we would get as angry as everyone else if someone FH'ed our animals. Report folks who appear to be zoosadists. I know you feel sorry about the fella who was caught with that wounded sheep. I do not. For us here the internet has become a matter of course, if we had no intenet, we would not be here. There are still some folks who have no internet, reasons are not a matter for us to discuss, but just realize it is so. A telephone service could help them. Or a snail mail service. It is important for us to have equals to talk to, the internet is the main source for that, but it should not be the only one. 5.Some years ago there was a fella known as Dobbin to the zoo world. He wrote some short stories that could be read by everyone, and first turned out to be what they were at the end. They could be read by non zoo's without getting them offended, but make them understand that other world -in a positive light. The film industry has done important steps to help gays, women, and black in the way with their rights. If someone knows someone who's uncle works in Hollywood, that would be fine. Just one more thing. I feel free to say we, because I also put my head on the block every now and then to prevent a vawe of anti-zoo laws here in Europe. I do not recommend doing nothing at this time, just keep it on moderate speed ahead and not turn things over because we advance too fast. That is all for now, maybe I will know more when i have slept another night. Best thoughts come at night.
My pennys worth.I agree with all the previous coments. However, i have to wonder. It seems to me that the more attention we bring to this, THE MORE ATTENTION we bring to this. Most people think we are all sick perverts, and should be STOPPED from harming animals physicaly and emotionaly. I repeat, the majority of people, think we are perverts. The more attention broght to this may only get people to realize how many of us their realy is, and therefore a lot more measures will most likely be brought against us. In their insane views of trying to stop us, and protect the public and their pets from us sicko's. I beleave it will just mean lots more and stricter anti-zoo legistration. We may have more freedom quietly in hiding, then we would ever have publicly.
You are right about something of that, arctic. SOme information provided previously have had adverse effects. Maybe because the public is not ready to learn about us, or the information provided was wrong, or offensive.Howto's and porn is certainly not the way to go. The way to go is to answer the questions when they rise, an not be the one to rise them. That meant both in not being the ones to start the debate, and prevent the debate to start because of caught FH'ers.Now and then some newsgroups come to discuss zoophilia, and tey say the usual stuff like "it is animal cruelty" and "it is sick". Just a simple question like "how do you know" can calm them down. Or add "did you make bad experiences?" I would even do that with my real name.
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Really, I see everyones points as well. You specifically are asking for what is positive about many of us. I can't speak for everyone, really, so this is me and those few close hands on friends I've had for years and years who are zoo.-Much more attention was put on the feeling of pets.-We tended to ignore racial and social boundries.-We joked and spoke openly and honestly about taboo matters of all sorts.-We tended to try to take charge of our pets wellbeing, rather then take the word of others, and just stick with the norm.-Until recently, we tended to keep our ideas of pet care to ourselves, unless directly asked by family or friends.-Notwithstanding in our early days some fencehopping, before meeting other people we knew to have feelings about it, we asked before borrowing equipment, and brought it back clean, and waited until we were offered to ride or drive other horses.-when we were offered another persons horse to ride or drive, or a dog for hunting for instance, were were very greatful. It was a sign of trust.Many people I know would greatly disagree with me, and that's cool, but like I've said before, I actually grew up like this, and neither I nor any of my family, nor those people I associated with closely discouraged me. I honestly believe most people who actually love thier animals to some extent do so in some way that if done to a person would either be sexual in nature, maternal, or faternal. I personally had a hard time comparing this to homosexuality until coming to sites online where the comparison was being made, because it looks much more like other taboos if you ignore the sexuality. It feels much more like a secret society. We are here, but people shouldn't or don't want to know. Another thing it feels like is polygamy, from where I stand. The legal system just can't handle this burden of trying to explain this relationship. I'm sure if we try we could find ways to help all of society if we got together, and in fact we have right here on this board through the donations we give to animal rescue and right causes. We also establish our own rules, right here, with leadership from the mods and advice from animal health experts on how we can more safely and happily should and can sexually interact with our animals, and animals we might "date".We can improve, however. More discussion on how others have provided the best for thier pets or animals they date with perhaps a little less then some pet owners. Since we have nearly the sole interest, we might be best able to find ways to prevent having to "fix" animals, which sometimes is a very poor choice. We can provide support to nearly any pet owner or animal rights organization in ways of advice and physical support. We can and do also provide support for people having issues with thier sexuality, social statue, and depression. Who here has never been depressed enough to consider abandoning thier family or even suicide? We can do a lot for the general public, with or without money if we get together and try. Best of all, no one ever needs to know we are zoo if we don't want them to.Does that help any? Ask me for any help that doesn't assume saying I'm zoosexual, and I'll do it. As far as I'm concerned, asking is rude, and saying can be offensive as well depending on who is in earshot.I'm a little more optomistic then most people I suppose, but then again, I didn't have to even consider zoophilia, or even define it, until about two years ago. I don't really see what you fellows are seeing.
A little more just occured to me as well...-Unless you intend to be shocking, don't talk about exactly the kinds of things you do. Remain ambigious. People are predators, and prey on other people they think are weaker then them, as well as defending themselves if they think they are being attacked. Don't give them cause.-Don't be assamed of yourself ever. Even if you are, don't make out that you are. Predators, you know. If you act suspicious, you will be suspected of something.-Don't ever lie about it. If someone asks something too personal, and we know what sort of questions those are, tell them none of thier business. It's not anyway.-If you also defend your pet the way you defend yourself, they'll stay away. No one wants to get involved with a hard target.-You might all consider the buddy system who have pets. If you are in a group normally those looking for an excuse to prey on you will look elsewhere.-Bottom line, taboo to them or not in general society, to some of us it isn't taboo. Don't act like it and treat it as if you would any other part of your family life, and people will not bother you. Respect yourself, and eventually others will respect you as well. I feel very strongly about the positive aspects to my own and my families love of animals. If anyone is offended by me or mine, while I don't publicly force it on others, my view is they shouldn't have been snooping trying to find something. They are in the wrong regardless if they accuse anyone of anything. Most people stay away from things they don't understand anyway. Anyway, that's how I feel about it. I know it's not a popular view, but people here did stick thier necks out to help me before, and I've done that for friends and family. I don't plan on changing now that I'm just settling in. I'll help if you ask and it's not directly asking me to offend others. Love your site too inluvwithewe, as well as this one.
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I have really enjoyed reading your thoughts on opening up this taboo..i do not know if my thoughts are good enough, but i could come up with a lot of suggestions...1. As a community firstly, are we concerned that it is not open?and.. if the answer is yes..then we need to address how to become more open about it. I really think that people do not want to discuss personal sexual deviances that they enjoy because of public backlash, so what we need to to do is slowly postion beastiality in a good frame of mind - but this may take generations. what i mean is we need to educate that this is just another sexual desire, like sm or scat....Then, we need to push, like what is happening these days in a turning conservative world, that sexual deisres are healthy, nature and all encompassing - we need ppl to band togeather and say it is okay to do the things we think if in the realm of postive exsistence. What this means is, we can think something, but to think and do something is different. If we can band togeather and act on the doing part, then society may approach us differently...I think the big thing is education and endorsement - mayby we could find a celeb who likes this sought of stuff to be open and endorse it...But, likely, this is always goin to be a taboo, but we can change society - because everything has a stigma, because we constructed it to be this way..We need to crush the stigma, with the next generations and mayby our childrens childrens can enjoy an open society that welcomes sexual desires...
Just a sidekick, maybe use the term zoosexuality rather than zoophilia. For those do not know, and tose who wants to compare us to some other "filia"-thing that users get banned for here, the term zoophilia may be adverse. Just a thought.
I acctually agree with we may have more freedom in hiding than trying to get the world to accept us for who we are. 155,660 registered members that is not very many people considering the planet has 62 billion people on it or so. Of those 155,660 how many acctually engage in activitys with animals and how many are on here just to look at pics for free or read storys. I will admit at first thats why I was here, it took several months before I admited I have had sex with an animal.I have seen a few articals in books that cover the topic of zoo or beastiality and one had a relitivly long artical on us, with an interview with a person who practiced it. His/her/there name was never givin and I belive articals like that might be a good start, if any one on here is a phsicietrist (spelling I know) or a shrink or studies human habbits than posably they could examin people from this site I would talk with some one to get a sense for why I am this way maybe I am a sicko perv or maybe it is something deeper. I would like to think it is something rooted deeper, than I do it because it is taboo. Information is power, if we can convice people its not a brain disorder or a chem imbalance in our heads that will goaway with drugs we might stand a chance.As for finding a celib to come forward for us that might be easy or hard depending on the person heck there might be a few on here and we don't know it. A brain Doctor or shrink might be able to come forward with a study and not reveal that they are a zoo if the study is ripped apart or frowned apon. Of cousre it could back fire if it seems there were lots of us and we should all be locked up, but thanks to the privicy act it is illigeal for a doc to give out the people he sees information so that could shield us some. I know I would lose some friends if they knew I was a zoo so while I would like to know I won't be burned at the stake I would also perfer to keep my friends as well.
Now this is what I call "Teamwork" I have been watching this thread because I truely do want to see all of the possible answers I can.My replies to what all of you have already given is already 2 Word Document pages long so I cannot post it here but I can say I see alot of good points in both directions and the replies are great I will be gathering as much as I can and I will post in the How To's [or where-ever it is allowed] a complete paper on this subject.If anyone would allow me, I would like to be able to use the finalization in my website and mind you there will not be any names mentioned or anything to get anyone in trouble because I don't want that either. I care about all of you, your feelings, and rights to love your lovers.To me, this is a personal thing because I am tired of the way humanity treats people regardless of whether they are different nationality, color, sexual preference, ,,, I am just sick of how humanity sets double standards in opposition... "Oh you can't do it because it's against the law... but I can because I am the law" kind of crap, if you get what I am trying to say. Society NEEDS to come to grips and face the fact that there needs to be more care and love and kindness in the world and the only way to get that is through TOLERANCE but in order to have tolerance, the subject must be Tolerable and that is what I am trying to accomplish... Making tolerable information available.As I said before... fear is what keeps us in the closet, keeps people hating us, and keeps us from advancing.It will not harm us to become open and I do believe that if everyone saw the same end result I see, they would know that becomming open would greatly benefit us and the future of all zoosexual people.I have seen many more benefits than repercussions and me, for one, I am tired of having to live a lie to everyone I meet and constantly "Hide" the true me and what I am not ashamed of and proud to be.If someone hates your religion... you defend it.If someone hates your clothing... you defend it.If someone tries to steel your belongings... you defend it.If someone says you are wrong for voting for a certain person... you defend your right to vote for whom you please.If someone speaks out against your country... you defend it.If someone tries to harm your family... you defend them.If someone tells you to buy this or that but you want to buy something else... you defend that right.If you are gay, black, white, woman, man, etc and someone tries to change the way you live or think... you defend it.Therefore... DEFEND YOUR RIGHT TO LOVE WHO YOU LOVE!That is the way I believe and that is what makes all countries FREE... by defending your rights to live life and be free from oppression, not just in sexuality, but in ALL forms of life activity."Grumpygoat", I really admire your reply as to the suggestions.I too don't see where actually ever having to tell anyone you are zoo makes any difference because anyone can be zoo, as we know already, and even those who you don't know about can be damn good people... Yes there are so many ways we can all help society with support and advice... if zoosexuality is ever made legal in all areas, we can offer advice to the SPCA and other [SPAM] when they have issues regarding abuse cases and so forth.That is what I am trying to accomplish here. I am not trying to say we need to be able to yell "Im a Zoophile"... we just need to be able to legally love the way we love. If no one ever finds out anyone is a zoosexual, great, and if they do, that was your own choice to tell.Keep em coming... this is great
First of all, and I know this is being repetitive, but I'll say it again: we need to drop the euphemisms.This is about sex with animals, not loving them. Loving your pet is socially acceptable and completely encouraged. Having sex with them is seen as on par with molestation and rape (not sure if those words are banned).As long as people talk about wanting it to be okay to "love your pets" you're not going to go anywhere. Who's going to argue that, no, you should hate your animals?As to the bigger question of "how can we destigmatize this," you can't. It's something that you simply cannot do. Society must come to terms with it, like American society is slowly coming to terms with homosexuality. And the way society comes to terms with it is simply through knowing individuals in the minority group, and realizing that, hey, they're not bad people.I'm a (wannabe) beasto-phile, and an atheist. I have some knowledge of what it's like to belong to a group that society absolutely does not, and will not, accept.
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QUOTE (atomx @ Mar 15 2006, 09:58 PM) This is about sex with animals, not loving them. Loving your pet is socially acceptable and completely encouraged. Having sex with them is seen as on par with molestation and rape (not sure if those words are banned). Not really. Some see it that way, but you will find folks herearound who really love their animals. Oh yes, you will hear a dog owner say "I love (name)", the reason being that he won something today.The zoophile love starts where you feel for an animal what "normal" folks feel for another human, wo the tell to be in love with. There are some relationships between humans based on sex only. These are poor relations, that tends to break apart. I am not talking abot them, but those relations where there is more than sex, a feeling of being united in life. If you dont see it, does not mean that it does not exist. There is more to life than sex. Also in this world of ours.Some of us sees this love, may have experienced it. It can not be downloaded.
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Of course, loveless sexual relationships tend to be unfulfilling. They're not morally wrong (unless you belong to a religion which tells you that, but since most religions condemn pet lovers to death, I'd be really careful about claiming religion as a justification), but yes, they tend to end up in disappointment.But what about sexless love relationships? In other words, platonic love? What is it about the zoophile's love that's somehow "better" or "deeper" than the normal pet owner's love, if you remove the sexual component?See, I've never, ever known a responsible pet owner who didn't love their pet as much as any member of their family. Many, many people I've known have loved their pets as much (sometimes more) than any human being, and (if the statistics on pet sex are accurate) 90+% of these are not having sex with their pets.Simply put, the "zoophile" community has no stranglehold on loving their pets. What differentiates a "zoophile" from a "non-zoophile" is simply that zoophiles have sex with their pets, too. Unless I'm missing something -- are their zoophiles who are non-sexual? In which case, how is "zoophilia" any different from any normal pet owner who loves their dog?I've never seen a good answer to this question; just folks either ignore it or they attack the messenger (reinforcing my belief that ther is no answer). I'll restate it here just to be clear:If you take sex out of the picture, how is 'zoophilia' any different from the relationship of a normal pet owner who deeply loves his/her pet and treats them as a member of the family?[Edited for clarity and to better address the poster's point.]
QUOTE (atomx @ Mar 15 2006, 10:35 PM) But what about sexless love relationships? In other words, platonic love? What is it about the zoophile's love that's somehow "better" or "deeper" than the normal pet owner's love, if you remove the sexual component?See, I've never, ever known a responsible pet owner who didn't love their pet as much as any member of their family. In you first statement you overlooked that pretty much, but ok. There are platonic, there are sex-only etc.Many pet owners love is pretty much on the surface. They love thier pets bcause they brig them prices, gives access to "fine clubs", you name it. Sometimes these pets do not meet what it takes to get first prices, give access to clubs etc. Such pets runs a high risc of getting abandoned. In fact, my oldes dog disappointed his first owner on a dog show and got the kick. I took him, and got a good loving companion, we developed a love that does not need to be verified with CACIB's end such.I do not think of the zoophile love as better, because there are cases where the owner exploit his animal to meet his own wants. It is just that you stated that "This is about sex, not loving them". Just know that I disagree on that, because i have experienced someting better than your statement.
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I disagree as well that this is about sex. It's not. I don't have sex with animals really. I haven't for many years. I have had sex with woman, even one that I love. What I'm personally saying is I find grooming a horse more satisfying then sex with any person. Additionally, I find interation with certain horses sexually arousing. I don't need the sex for those things to happen. And as well I have had sex with other them people, I enjoyed it, and I want to enjoy again. That's not the same as saying I want to find a horse as a sex partner. I don't know really. We aren't really defined. I think here we are defining people who want sex with animals as beastie, and those who find themselves engaged enough with some animals to be willing to have sex with them as zoo. That makes me zoo, and I think InLuvWithEve zoo, our friend Hammie I'd call zoo, maybe atomx is beastie; and lots of stages in between. I just say neither way is really wrong, just strange for the average joe.I've actually heard the same arguement before regarding heterosexual relationships. I think the implication was also same race and national origin. One man or woman says they are in love, and his or her friend says no such thing. I'm guessing the feeling is a little different for all of us, and it's not and it's not very clearly defined.
QUOTE (Wirehair @ Mar 16 2006, 01:09 AM) Many pet owners love is pretty much on the surface. They love thier pets bcause they brig them prices, gives access to "fine clubs", you name it. Sometimes these pets do not meet what it takes to get first prices, give access to clubs etc. I can kinda understand your statement on this because it seems to be based on your experience with a few owners... but remember that you are experiencing this with only a few people.. I do not see where you can say your(or any zoos) love for your animal is any better than the love my mother had for her dog.. her dog did not bring her fame or fortune or prizes nor did he provide her with any sexual release... but he gave her unconditional love and companionship! and when he passed away a few months ago she grieved just like when my dad passed away.. her dog was her son! and MANY MANY MANY people feel the same! I would die inside if my girl died.. and I am not active with her.... I grew up with animals.. many animals yet I only just discovered there was a sexual side to this! I didnt all of a sudden decide that becasue I was aroused by a male dog I would love my animals more.. I have loved all my pets with my whole heart! even before all of this... no one is trying to stop us from loving our pets... in fact many encourage it! what the majority object to is our sexual relations with said pets.. that is what they feel is wrong and they cant understand that it is consensual... InLuvWithEwe.. I wish you luck on your search for the answers to this issue... I am sorry I cant agree with you or fight with you.. this will always be a secret for me with most people...
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QUOTE (wyldfyre67 @ Mar 17 2006, 10:03 AM) I do not see where you can say your(or any zoos) love for your animal is any better than the love my mother had for her dog.. her dog did not bring her fame or fortune or prizes nor did he provide her with any sexual release... but he gave her unconditional love and companionship! and when he passed away a few months ago she grieved just like when my dad passed away.. her dog was her son! and MANY MANY MANY people feel the same! I would die inside if my girl died.. and I am not active with her.... Sometimes i just put things on the sharp edge. I just wanted to make out the difference of love and love. When your mother said she loved her dog, she did not mean having sex. I had a fella here who did not know the difference between love and sex. The love your mother had to her dog is fine with me. So is the love that many zoos have to their - loved ones. But when I hear "this is about sex wit animals, not loving them" i get concerned. Now the talk is about a sex toy, not a living creature.Reading my last post here, I see that I missed that point. Still, I think, your mother's love to her dog, and my love to my dog, along with many other folks here and elsewhere is a better love than "this is about sex wit animals, not loving them". Reading that, my keyboard airbag went off, sorry.
QUOTE (atomx @ Mar 15 2006, 02:35 PM) If you take sex out of the picture, how is 'zoophilia' any different from the relationship of a normal pet owner who deeply loves his/her pet and treats them as a member of the family? I think I'm getting a clearer picture, but still what I envision is the desire instead of the act. They don't really go hand in hand. I find I don't need another individual for myself. Just so happens neither do these two boys. But its still fun for all when we "flirt"; still not really sex. It's sex for them, but not for my wife and I to collect semen as well, but that doesn't mean none of us can enjoy doing it. We don't actually do anything a friend would find sick, or object to, but we would be frowned on for doing it in public, and I personally can really get into it. If he is really enjoying it, I won't object to having sex with him. I don't personally find anything at all wrong with that. It seems natural to me for all the relationships with any animals including people be varied and dynamic. The trouble is there is a fine, yet fuzzy line between what is acceptable and what is not. Now I know collecting semen for evaluation is O.K, while going down on him isn't, but that gray zone in between is where the line is lost, and I don't think anyone is just going to find it. Is it O.K. to drink the semen after collecting, and if not why not? If you find your mouth is the best tool you have for collecting semen, why not use it and spit the sample on the slide?This a tiny sliver or the tiny part that is actually sexual. I assumed from the definition there was going to be a lot more grooming, bonding, bragging, and riding for a zoo; not to mention picking muck, fence building, feeding, calling the vet and waiting up all night with a sick one, and the list really goes on. I was assuming good husbandry was part of zoophilia, and further it's our opinion zoosexuality can enhance husbandry skills. It's something to be proud of, whether your jerk neighbors feel more important then you or not for being straight.But like all the wise old zoos here have said, and I put it seperate so it doesn't get lost, we really shouldn't talk about it to nonzoos. They aren't going to understand that any more then they are going to understand if you really do just desire a dog as a play thing. Lots and lots of people can't conceive of anything but people, and sometimes only a certain race, sex, or nationality, as being living feeling beings, and they will argue with you until blue in the face. Yeah, be proud of being zoo, don't be ashamed of being zoosexual, but for the love of Pete don't tell anyone. Makes me think of a bird and cat story. I might still yet be wrong on the definitions of love and zoophilia as well, so don't beat me up too bad. They really aren't very well clearly defined.
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I agree that euphemisms may be inappropriate at times but they are necessary in a society that deems it necessary to "define" everything. By defining things, we can associat and/or relate and in that, we can understand what it is being defined.Therefore, as someone else posted... the use of the term "Zoosexuality" is more befitting.I agree with that because we have hetero, homo, bi, trans, and a few others that right now, sinse I haven't had enough coffee in me yet, I can't think to well... So, why not add Zoosexuality to the list.To Clerify: THIS IS NOT about sex with animals but the right of people to love their pet companion [even in that way if they so choose].Again, I plan on creating a dissertation/essay in response to all of this plus using much of the other information and some of the arguments I have both for and against. The dissertation/essay will be offered for FREE download on my website once completed.I personally think this has been a wonderful and insightful thread.So far, it has been debatable, yet it has remained calm... so please, let's keep it that way I haven't read many threads of this nature here because they usually tend to get out of hand but I would be willing to bet that this one is the only one so far of this topic that has actually brought about some decent approaches and conversation.For that, I am thankful and it proves that this CAN work... slowly.
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It turned out, that I wil meet a Journalist on Sunday, he would like to know about my life as a zoo, and he has prepared me on somw of his questions. Hee apperas to be well prepared, and serious. I will reply here when I know what comes out. If I dont post here after sunday, please someone feed my dogs..
QUOTE (Wirehair @ Mar 17 2006, 11:04 PM) It turned out, that I wil meet a Journalist on Sunday, he would like to know about my life as a zoo, and he has prepared me on somw of his questions. Hee apperas to be well prepared, and serious. I will reply here when I know what comes out. If I dont post here after sunday, please someone feed my dogs.. you are very couragous.
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What can we do?- Contact the serious researchers and participate in their studies. Dr. Hani Miletski for example. I understand that there are sessions about understanding zoophilia and zoosexuality in a Sexology conference in San Franscisco. There are other researchers in the midwest. Professionals and academics lay the groundwork for better tolerance and dispelling the lies.- Support politicians and causes that are neutral or friendly to our causes. (ie; in the UK - the Blair government attempted to decriminalize bestiality in the revision of the criminal codes) Vote for anyone running against sponsors of bills that make us criminals. Avoid giving money or time to those who will use those resources against us (HSUS, Animall legal defense fund, PETA, etc) - give it to others instead, or if you give enough - get on the boards of Directors and point out that they should have other priorities than a few sheep boinkers.-Network. Make friends within the zoosexual community. The more isolated we are, the more alone we feel.Publicity has worked against us almost everytime so far: Jerry Springer, BBC, every arrest and trial in the news. We need model level attractive, highly educated and credentialed (lawyer, phD, etc) lobbyists or spokespeople and funds to support them. Mark Matthews (aka; Hossie, George) had formed a zoo assistance organization ZOO, anyone know what became of it? Hossie (Mark Matthews) also did fairly well at dispelling much of the heat he got when he was promoting his book and scored points that made him a real person and not a demon or a stereotype (even though he wasn't a model, or credentialed).Good thread BTW.
I have attempted to provide a thoughtful and brief answer to each one of your questions or points. I hope that this may shed some light on my viewsYour thoughts and feelings as to why you believe zoosexuality is right"Being a Zoo is right because it is who we are, what we are, our heart and soul and every part of our being. This is not a choice or a preference, it just IS.Your observations of animals in regards to consent/disapproval"Animals certainly can consent to sexual activity, even initiate it. They also can decline in several ways, one being with their teeth.Thoughts on how to approach the subject in society"We do not need to broach the subject in general society. This would present a grave danger to anyone that is "outed". I tould be far worse than coming out as Gay back in the 50's and early 60's.Ideas on ways to bring the subject into a good light that society will see as good"I don't believe in our lifetime, Society will see any act of sex between humans and animals as a good thing. I think it will only decrease the little tolerance that a few non zoos may hold for us now."Ways a zoosexual person can benefit society"A zoo can benefit society the same way that any other person of good character can, and that is by helping our fellow human being, no matter what their religion, color creed, national origin or sexual preferences happen to be!Ways that zoosexuality does NOT hinder or affect society as a whole"Zoosexuality does not hinder society in general. It may hinder individulas in the event that a zoo may be "fence hopping" and using their animal without permission. Overall, society is still rather oblivious to the whole hidden world of zoosexuals. The few cases where there have been public outcrys is when someone gets caught and is prosecuted, then the media has a field day.Ways that the governments and legal systems can recognize the differences between zoosexuality and abusive behaviour"Even the most liberal of governments have policies in place to protect animals and I don't think that most will see the difference of intimate sexual contact verses rape, unforunately.Ideas that can help create laws that are fair for everyones concern including the animal's"We don't need laws created to be fair or balanced, as that again, most likely will not happen in our lifetime. I think that we just need to maintain an aire of discretion, while maintaing our love for animal partners.Ideas for laws that are similar to the laws human relationship must follow"Unforunately, I don't believe that there will ever be laws governing relationships with animals on a "human style' level. Animals may communicate with us in their own unique way, but they will never be able to accept marriage or divorce, as they can sign any contracts. You need opposable thumbs for that!This is an interesting topic and I hope more people add their thoughts. Remember, our thoughts belong to us and no one is wrong when it comes to thoughts!
Two points I didn't include in the previous post:1) Come up with nonzoo reasons for your public official, cause or group support or opposition and tell everyone you know. If there is a discussion of zoo issues, do ask what others think and WHY, and why and why. If you discuss one of the court cases or such why is the crime so bad/ not so bad or the punishment too harsh or too lenient?2) "Animals can't consent." Red herring. Specious. In what aspects of an animal's life under human influence is consent important? Life and death, health care, breeding or not, working, racing, use for food production, surgical alteration, or any aspect? Where else is consent raised? Never and nowhere - except sex with humans. What is important is humane and considerate care and interaction. We argue that the animals can and do consent or refuse, and we are obligated to respect their choices. If consent is an issue, then you need to ask where else is an animal's ability to consent important? Humans use animals all the time in all sorts of ways and "consenting" is never part of the equation - only if the use is harmful, cruel or inhumane. So that is the real issue - are we kind, humane and ethical? Most people will not like the logical course following "consent" as a criterion- as it changes EVERYTHING about how we keep and interect with animals, and will be hard pressed to explain in what way the dog humping you or getting a BJ is harmful. Yes, they can't tell when they are being hurt or treated cruelly - and that is where the issue needs to be addressed.
I think a big part of the complexity of this subject actually arises from the dominant ideas of how Love, Relationship, and Identity are perceived in this culture. I'll spare us the love and relationship ones. Love and Relationships are experienced both personally and publicly. But Identity is purely public. That is; its meaning is constructed only by its relationship to how others perceive us. In the West (and spreading like wildfire across to the last corners of the planet) Identity is highly tied in with our sense of self and self esteem. It seems, generally speaking, that many of us in Western Culture only feel validated by public approval; by acceptance of our identity. G Gordon Liddy (yes Im going to quote him here!) when asked once how he thought people worked answered: "What people think, they do; what they do, they become."While I dont think thats the whole story of human nature in a nutshell, it does give us a windowview into how many (most?) people believe that of themselves. "If I have powerful feelings for my animal pal that even have sexual shades to them, and sometimes as a result I have sexual relations with my willing pal, this means I AM a Beast or a Zoo. If I AM that, I need my community to support that aspect of my identity. For without that support my identity and thus my essential self is denied and is defined as "unacceptable." I think thats the heart of what Im trying to say; too many people are committed to their identity because they(we?) have been taught that existential social value: "Without Identity your nuthin' kid! If you wanna 'Be' 'Somebody'...you gotta 'Make' yourself seen and heard!"As much as anybody those are the values that Ive been soaking in all my life. Fortunately, "being" "gay" and zoobeastish (that last term is sufficiently vague not to need quote marks) and a bit of a quirky crack-pot, Ive struggled with this issue profoundly. Ive alway wanted to be accepted in the whole hearted manner of all my worldly peers, but I would have to endure a terrible amount of work, emotional havoc, heroics, loss of relations, abuse, and so on just to approach what they do and are accepted for everyday. Rather the feeling I have arrived at is that I dont need to "Identify" to anyone, (or even to myself) much of my being. My sense of self does not rely on the approval of others. Nor does my sense of sexuality. Because I could dearly fall in love with an animal pal, do I need name it..."Identify" it? Because I feel arousal of my soul, heart and loins (the ache to merge into one) does it mean only that Im "Sexually Attracted to Animals"? Because horsing(!) around with my dog friend ended up including (amongst all kinds of foolish fun) genital play and orgasm, that Im "Into" "Beastiality"?Why do we do this to ourselves? Why do we need so badly the approval of others so we can approve of our own selves? Why do we need to always "Identify" our behavior even to ourselves?Dont get me wrong, I dont want to or intend to abandon the support, empowerment and joy of identifying all together. Its great to "Identify" with you folks for example! And I love saying to myself "I DO love animals in a sexual way too!" (I get a boner just writing it!) But I dont want the sense that I Need to or Have to "Identify" my own feelings to myself or anyone or group to feel "right" about myself. I also get "aroused" petting a critter I'd never consider having sex with (such as a bunny) or feeling velvety moss or lying naked on warm rocks. Identification of these feelingsas sexual (having to say to oneself "gee Im turned on by lying on these rocks") would bring so much unnecessary baggage into them as to spoil them. So why should I do it even when I am sexually aroused when playing with my pal? Why let G. Gordon Liddy right? Ok enuff verbal. Singing Dog....Pontificates again!
one thing i personally think would really help would be to educate (other people) on the difference between most of the stuff you see in the media and the majority of the actual community.most of the incidents you see plastered all over the 6 o'clock news are largely those who deserve to have the full weight of the law (and then some) dropped upon them, but in the typical fashion, the public lumps the entire community together under that thought.for example, one of the big busts a couple months back (can't remember when exactly), all kinds of videos, including chickens and such, which, while its a good fantasy, i simply find unacceptable in real life, due to the harm/death it causes to the animal, and as i said, the public assume that all of us are like that, which is completely wrong, as as far as i can tell, those mentioned acts are considered wrong by most (if not all) in this community.
"one thing i personally think would really help would be to educate (other people) on the difference between most of the stuff you see in the media and the majority of the actual community."Thats why Im a little hesitant on social identification but way hot on community identification. The issue I see arising with ever trying to educate society on the difference between those is that you automatically put yourself in the same category; just different. People who literally abuse animals (as you indicated; chickens and such) are just abusers. For them animals are a prop for their main trip: abuse. If I say anything I say, those arnt zoosexuals or beast people, they are just more abusers. If I was ever "caught" in a dalliance with a dog. I dont want to have to raise my right hand and repeat some sort Zoo/Beast oath. " I am Zoosexual/ Beast Lover, I am not an abuser. I care for my animals...etc" It'd never wash. But, on the other hand saying something like: "Well...umm...Hell Bob! (S)he was horny, I was horny...and I dont know...(s)he didnt mind, I didnt mind. YOU know how it can git, and I love that ol' boy/girl as much as Ive loved anyone. Lemme get you a beer and we can just forget all about this, its really nobodies business but my own anyway, just as yer sex life is yer own...and god only knows what REAL horrors you keep in that closet...c'mon!...c'mon!! Im only kiddin! Im not the first person and I wont be the last, and besides half of all men and god knows how many woman have had "extracurricular activities" with their pets, why Ben Franklin was 'very fonde" of his Newfoundlander and you know what fond meant in those days doncha? Thats right. Now let me get you that cold beer. " With any hope after a coupla beers, Bob or whomever will think your alright after all and cave in and mention how he used to work on this farm and...
This topic, like all others involving a persons sexual practices, which are not a danger or harm, to ones self or others, is not a badge of honor, to be worn. It is not a soapbox to stand on, to proclaim ones position on any givin forum. Gay, Animal or what ever. People who feel that they are falling short of the norms or doing something wrong, weather they are aware of it or not, need the affermation of the public to justify their actions. This is to make them feel normal, to make them not out of the mainstream. If you are healthy and really (normal) you know what you are doing, is considered a little outside the box, or just wrong by most people. But who cares, remember, in most states oral sex with your wife or husband is illegal. Just check the books............. This practice like any other that does not fit the norm of society, should not be force fed to the rest of the population. Just as we, as a part of society would never condone or accect, child molestation or sadomasacistic behavier towards an animal, we can't expect the majority of people to justify what we do. Enjoy yourself, by yourself or with others of like mind. But don't seek or demand the understanding of others, who can't or won't see this issue in the same light as you.
Well said, DiverDown20019. Very good first post. Hope to hear more from you.
If we established a boundary line with people of what abuse was and a loving relationship with your animal is then people might listen. Until we do that people are going to continue to listen to the media this can be compared to people who own large reptiles if a reptile bites someones arm and tries to eat them it's going to be in the paper the very next day making it seem like all reptiles are terrible animals to have eventually leading to the ban of owning large reptiles and other animals.... this can also be compared to pit bulls who have always been made out to be looked at as fighting dogs when they really aren't. The media has made up myths about their jaws locking and other cruel things. The point I am trying to get at is though that we need to establish a boundary with the politicians and common people because if we don't and keep hiding it it's always going to be like this.
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