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I would like to state right off the bat that this is NOT any form of troll topic. Its just that I find many people on here talk about there pet in a very emotional way, and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that in any way. Family pets and animals, especially ones raised from birth are part of the family and deserve just as much love and respect as any other member of the family.However, what about those to seek out a pet PURELY for the sexual aspect. I mean, they don't have any intention of being mean or cruel to this creature. They will take care of it the same way any person that cares for there pet does... BUT the main reason for there choice is sex and nothing but sex. Is this really so wrong?I only ask because I find many people on here get rather out of gear when this sort of question comes up. Its almost like if the person is only in it for the sex, the animal is going to be neglected in some way or another. I don't believe this is the case myself. If I was to buy a dog, I gotta tell ya, the sexual aspect is pritty much all I would be thinking of. And I'm not a bad person, I don't intend to mistreat this animal in ANY way. I believe people who are cruel to animals have a special place in Hell waiting for them. Anyway, your opinions would be great
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I've mentioned this topic in chats before so I'll throw in my two cents. In human/human relationships, there will always be "players" who go out to bars or other places looking to hook up with some random girl for the night with no interest in who she is on a personal level, simply that she's female and easy. The next morning (or even that night) he'll offer her cab fare and send her on her way, usually never to be seen again. This sort of behavior is very common in today's society and has become an accepted evil.Then you have guys who choose hookers over actual relationships because they "simply want the sex" and don't wish to be bothered with the time consuming portion of an active relationship. Guys of this nature who move into a actual relationship normally go for "Booty calls" where they only visit their girlfriend for sex and then leave right after. If they take out their girlfriend to an event, it's a purely selfish choice to show them off to others or to make them look less like they actually are "No man, I'm not a jerk, see, here's my girlfriend."And still you have guys who were only first attracted to a girl for sex, faked interest to keep her around for sex and MAYBE eventual fell in love with her. There have been a lot of books writing about these sorts of relationships, either showing how to get into one or how to know you are in one ("He's just not that into you" by Greg Behrendt and "How to make any one fall in love with you" by Leil Lowndes are just two that I've read).Now this is a human/human thing and were you presented with topic I'm sure you might have a different opinion on it then if you were given the topic of this thread. Since I'm male I'm only offering a male side of it, there's girls who do the same things listed above but as I personally can not offer explanations for their actions, I will not attempt to.Is it wrong to get a pet for the sole purpose of having sex? Yes IF that were the 100% only interaction you were having with it. For that to be true you would have to buy it and let some one else care for it, only visiting or seeing the animal when you wanted sex. But in general most pet owners would find this situation a bit difficult. If you got a dog we'll say and treated it as a normal pet (feeding it, occasionally playing with it, ect.) and when in the mood had sex with it, is that a bad thing? Well that comes down to a simple factor: When you have sex with your pet, how do you go about it? If you only do it when she's in heat, I wouldn't say you're taking advantage of her as if you were having sex with her out of heat since being in heat means she's "in the mood" in most cases. If she stands there and lets you do it (in or out of heat) I wouldn't say you were raping her as I would if you have to hold her or pin her down. If you have a male dog and can only have sex with him by dildogging, then yes its probably mistreatment but if you slip under him and have sex (he doesn't thrust) without having to restrain him it's not as bad because he could walk away if he wanted. If she offers herself to you in heat or he mounts you, there's little question as to their interest and accepting that interest is a good thing.In an ideal pet/owner sexual relationship we would all hope there is emotions/love but in the reality of the human species the true meaning of LOVE can be different for different people. It all depends on how we were raised and the experiences we have had up to that point. Some folks are just emotionally stunted for what ever reason and will always have problems showing the levels of love we would want to see. Some might even choose a pet as a lover over another human simply for the fact that they require less emotional commitment (Verbally) then humans do. When was the last time your dog nagged you because you never say "I love you"?Many of us are guilty of anthropomorphizing our pets, projecting onto them many of the qualities and ideals we do with humans but while our pets have levels and types of emotional responses, they do not have them at the levels humans do/should. There have been scientific studies of these, people thinking of animals in terms of humans and treating them as such, try doing a Google sear.In the end my opinion in general is: if the animal is not being abused, is given proper food and medical treatment, is not living 90% of its life in a cage or on a chain, is mentally stimulated (through play or toys), and is not being forced against its will into sexual situations, then owning a pet for sex isn't a bad thing. You are giving it all the attention and care that any normal pet owner would but are simply interacting with your animal in an additional way. Again, every pairing of pet/owner should be evaluated on its own as every person/animal is different in the way they think and interact.Now if you turn it around... How about pets who only want sex from their owners? I've seen vids of dogs who are trying desperately to mount their owner and I have to ask, how often do they attempt this? Yes, a lot of this sort of behavior is the fault of the owner for not discouraging this behavior when they were young. You have this new pup who you are planning to raise for sex and the first time he mounts your leg, you think its cute. Since you never try to stop him from doing it, he learns that its ok to do it when ever he feels like and often becomes the dominate one in the pet/owner relationship. A lot of how we view sexual relationships is also often based on genders as well. A guy with a bitch having sex might be seen as more forced then a woman with a stud simply due to the gender of each party involved. Really think about it for a moment; how you would view a guy anally penetrating a male dog vs. a woman orally penetrating a bitch? Along with gender, sexual orientation is also a factor.But I've rambled on far to long about this, love is a touchy subject after all and is hard to define, specially since every one views it in a different way based on their own experience with it. I hope all this has been informative to some extent.
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No two people are going to have the identical depth of emotional connection to their pets/lovers. Consequently I hold nothing against those people who have sex with their pets and just see their animals as a "pet" and nothing more. You cannot force someone to LOVE anyone or anything. So long as the animal is getting its own fun out of the sexual relationship and it is well taken care of I have no problem with that. Is this also not so with mere working animal relationships humans have, like raising race horses, or dogs for herding sheep etc. Those are not relationships of love so much as working ones. Which is how we mostly comport ourselves with respect to other humans everyday. So no, I do not require, nor look down on someone who does not love the animals they are having sex with.
Wait wait wait wait.I was actually going to bring this up in another topic, but it seems that this is a place. I noticed a double-standard among many here. I've read many posts about people with other people's animals . . . guys/girls getting with their friend's or roommate's dogs, sons/daughters getting it with their parent's or grandparent's dog, or people getting it on while "petsitting", etc. . . . and many in this board seem to cheer it on, saying things like "wow, you are lucky!" and "wow, that was HOT."In these situations, it is clearly about the sex. And I see nothing wrong with that, as long as the animals are enjoying themselves too. Seems that animals/humans enjoy having sex. Killjoy seems to talk about sex without relationships as an "evil" and as something a man "does" to a woman. Granted, BOTH sexes are guilty of "taking advantage" of others with poor judgment. I agree that "taking advantage" of animals is bad . . . but what would that look like? Is "taking advantage" when your neighbor asks you to feed his dog and you stroke the dog off? I was thinking about this as a double standard when I hear others compain about "fence hopping." It seems that "fence hopping" is severly frowned upon in many zoo communities, yet stories like the ones mentioned above are celebrated. Am I missing something here?I say that as long as you are not hurting the animal, and as long as the animal is enjoying themselves, the let sex be sex.If it's not about sex, then WTF is with the "picture trading" boards? Hmmmm???
I agree with what you say. There is definitely a gray area here. With a friend or relatives pet, where that pet is secure and safe and well cared for outside anything you do with it, there is less the feeling that you are "using" it merely for sex. As opposed to someone who wants to pick up a stray from the shelter force sex upon it then dump it on the street after they get their cum. Or other situations like blatant fence hopping, which often involves a blatant act of trespass upon someone's home property. And I think its often hard to separate where one begins and the other situation ends. Its always easy to take a stance at an extreme end. Hence why my earlier post didn't specify a specific type of living situation. I was merely attempting to address the specific emotional motivations which was what the OP was asking about.
QUOTE (deskeater @ Jun 25 2009, 06:37 PM)Killjoy seems to talk about sex without relationships as an "evil" and as something a man "does" to a woman. Granted, BOTH sexes are guilty of "taking advantage" of others with poor judgment. I agree that "taking advantage" of animals is bad . . . but what would that look like? Is "taking advantage" when your neighbor asks you to feed his dog and you stroke the dog off? Actually, I don't think its evil as you seem to think I mean. I, myself, have yet to have sex with any human I "loved" simply because I have yet to meet one I did. I had a crush on a girl in high school which ended badly and after there I've kept my emotions pretty much locked away. Being a healthy male I had a strong sex drive which lead me to meet girls online for one night stands. That was all about the sex for me, there was not feeling in it, hell, most of the girls I didn't even find attractive.But that was when I was younger, it was pretty stupid of me now that I'm older and look back on it but that's all part of growing up, doing stupid stuff you regret later and maybe even laugh about.What I was trying to express in my post was that for some one to look at a man or woman who is having sex with an animal and there's no love involved, only sex, that its no different from a guy or girl who does the same with another human. We all would like to imagine that every zoo relationship (be it with one animal or the entire farm) has some emotion behind it, maybe not love but at least you spend some time with the animal before or after. Can you love an animal and still force it sexually? Sure. Is that a bad thing? Sure. Does it happen with humans? Sure does, do a Google search for marital rape.I personally have not gotten another dog (mine passed away years ago) because I do not feel that I have the time to spend with it. Life on a chain or in a fence alone is not the life I'd wish on any animal. So does it show an emotional maturity on my part to realize I don't have the time available to properly raise and care for a dog? Maybe. I do live on a small farm and take care of the animals we have (chickens/geese/cats/pony) I feed them and talk to them, chase them around and carry them around. I've helped bring some of them into the world (raised some of them by hand, bottle fed, ect.) Do I love them? I don't think I do in the traditional sense of the word. They're "just pets" and I do what any pet own is expected to do. Of course I grew up on a farm and learn the hard truth of being a pet owner, when they pass away. Maybe I've just toughened up over the years due to it. Who knows.But back to the thread topic, what if it is just about the sex? As long as not one is being forced, no one is being hurt, is that a problem? I don't see is as a problem. Does there have to be "love" involved? I don't think there has to be, but its nice to think there is.
Ok this is my opinion here, again this is where zoos and beasties differ. Zoos see their animals as partners like they would a boyfriend girlfriend or husband and wife, rather then just a pet, where love is actually involved.Beasties, dont have have that same emotional level with their pet, which is all it is to them, a pet. If they buy an animal just for sex the only thing i hope for is if the animal is loved and care for, but does not need actual "love" as you would for a partner, get it?I agree though that i dont really condone "fence hoppers", only because your disrespecting other peoples pets. If you have your own dog purely for sex thats ok. as long as you treat it like a pet, love and care for it, but do not use it for your or sexual gratification AKA a sex toy
First of all I want to commend each poster for their intelligent, informative and civil remarks. As for sex without love, I see no problem there as long if it's on a shared level. I believe sex is sex and love is love. (If you're having sex with someone you love that's even better.) But each person has their own needs, be it emotional or physical. If two (or more) people agree to try to meet eachother's needs for whatever reason more power to them. The grey area is the shared level. What if one party too drunk, on drugs, too young or limited mentally to be fully aware of that's to take place? Is it right? Now how does that relate to a Zoo lifestyle? One of the arguements people use against it is that the level is not even so all animals are being raped and abused. Just look about this site and we know that's not true. There are many happy (and loving) relationships going on. A licking or mounting dog is doing what it enjoys as much as a willing bitch with a careful and caring partner. What does concern me is that there will always be those who will use and abuse anyone/anything for their sole pleasure that ruins the image for everyone.
We'll this topic does carry lots of debate from early days of this forum, and it was due to come up again. Personally I cannot be as expanding on the details as most here but can offer a simple opinion. It is my belief that primal sexual desire for animals is something we all carry, some of us fell it + act on it stronger than others and in different ways. Acceptance in our outlet of this desire will drive us together in places like BF. Here we can be free to listen and learn, then mabie take example from tho's who have been in your particular situitation. In the end you will do only what you feel is right.Still after all these years I can feel it inside me, consuming emotion sometimes when timing is right with a particular partner or situitation. Lust or love, it depends on the day .
Hmmm... this topic is so interesting to myself, yet I can see the potential for name calling and other debased actions towards others and their own beliefs. So, I will try to be constructive and keep the finger pointing towards myself.Zoophile doesn't seem to carry the same meaning it held when I was first introduced to it nearly 15 years ago. However, the word Beastiality carries a very negative stereotype with it that many people give reasons to try to distinguish themselves from that word. To some extent, even to people like myself that would call ourselves life stylists, we in a small form or another perform beastiality. If we buy, rescue, or otherwise adopt an animal into our life, we do think that there could be a possibility for a sexual relationship. We can state that first and formost our partners are our friends with honesty and all integrity. We also don't force or restraint our partners and we do care and love for them very much. Yet, it's not very natural for an animal to have or perform their sexual desires with us. For those of us that have female animal partners; that would mean breaks that last 4-5 months inbetween or long winter lapses. Also, some sexual activities would NEVER be performed by them with their own species. Two activites that my late partner and I enjoyed together was deep french kissing and performing oral sex on each other. These two activities wasn't something that was natural for her, but something the two of together had to learn and "train" the other what they enjoyed. There was a lot of trust involved for us both that neither of us would hurt or injure the other. There's not a lot of dogs out there that are sticking their tongues into other dog's mouths without fear of getting it bit off. These activities also fell outside of her normal heat cycles too. She was doing it more or less because I liked it and she got a reward at the end she wanted (namely, she loved to clean me up [no, I didn't have to bribe her with dog treats... ]). I could try to glorify our actions as she and I were doing it purely for the pleasure for the other, but that would be me putting human words and emotions to an act that she couldn't make a human crowd understand her intent or will.It's very hard not to judge others who's beliefs fall outside of our own. In fact, it's VERY human to judge others. That being said, I try very hard not to accuse or otherwise belittle other people in what they believe. As what Deskeater and Killjoy said before, I agree that there are those type of people out there that exsist. American society seems to harbor those stereotypes of people and are considered "normal" these days. It wasn't very long ago when we used to call a guy that sleep around as a "stud" (glorified) and a woman that did the same as a "whore" or "slut" (degraded). Now, we pacify these terms as "hook ups", "friends with benefits" or "booty calls". So, since American society doesn't openly frown upon these actions, it could be justified by a person that beastiality is nothing more then having a "dog with benefits".It's my hope and dream that not only is the animal happy in a relationship, but they're also well cared for, happy, and safe. Until later then, may peace and love suround you always.HyBrithe Resurgam
i have been into beast ror over 60 yrs i have purchased dogs and poniies for one reason that was to have sex with them i now have a large female lab and 2 mini mares i have only had sex with one of the mares recently shes a year old and just had her first heat her mother hasnt come in heat yet, i had one little mare that would get horny as hell when she was in heat would chase me around the pasture i donnot get attached to my animals i have bought them just to have sex with
but of course you still love and car for your animals but dont have a relationship right?WHen i got my dog i got him for sex but i loved and cared for him just like i would any other pet like my female. but over time i grew to see my pet as something more and saw him as my partner. Something can grow but something might not. but i stand by as long as the dog is cared for hes ok.
QUOTE First of all I want to commend each poster for their intelligent, informative and civil remarks.I agree 100%. I didn't know if posting this topic was a good idea at first since I've seen MANY instances where people get somewhat out of hand and insulted when this comes up. I am VERY happy everyone is talking about it in such an objective manor.
I'd personally like to hear from some of the women who visit this forum, how they feel about this thread. As I said in my posts, I am male so I could only offer the opinion of a male. Not to sound sexist but females tend to be more emotional by nature and I could see the term "love" coming up more often when they talk about their partners. It's often hard for a guy to say he loves some one and if it's easy, does he truly mean it? Some of us might be unable to admit our feels but are faced with them when our partners are done, you only realize what you had when you no longer have it.Also, this thread might be best answered by some one who is in both a zoo and a human/human relationship at the same time, be it with another zoo or a non-zoo. For them, they would have to consider how much time they spend with each partner, what level of interaction is there between each. We all know that dogs and other animals can't speak our language but who do you spend more time talking to? Who do you find yourself telling secrets to or confessing your feelings to? When you are sad/depressed/upset who do you turn to for comfort? For a guy, being emotional and letting your guard down might feel safer around your animal partner as many men are raised to think some emotions are "weak" and you shouldn't let any one see. How often have you cried where others can see you, specially your human partner?Lastly, some say "I got it solely for sex" but as I pointed out, is that 100% true? Is sex the ONLY interaction you have with the animal? Do you feed it/water it? Do you take it to the vet when its ill? Do you shelter it? Do you brush it? I don't mean to anthropomorphize animals but when you do and compare the care you offer them to the care you would offer a human mate, is it really that different? When you take a wife, she moves into your house (usually) and when you get a pet, they move in as well. If you work and your wife takes care of the house, you are providing the food for her just as you would for your pet. If she's sick it's up to you to take her to the hospital (since you have the money/insurance) just as you would have to take your pet to the vet. NO I am not trying to say women are pets or objectify them in any way, I am simply making an analogy in a way that's easy to understand. Whether or not you realize it, your relationship to your pets is similar in many ways to a relationship with a spouse, even pets you don't have sex with.
*points to Horndawgs*She's a woman...Not to try to set myself upon a pedestal. Afterall, things on pedestals tend to get knocked down and break... But, I'm a guy and I can openly and honestly say that I loved (past tense) my mate very much. You don't spend 14 years with a partner without investing a lot of emotional time. There were times where I could have called it quits with her and put her to sleep without drawing any suspicion to myself. Instead, my emotional attachment made monitary concerns obsolete. Even if that meant I had to borrow money from family to cover my costs. It was a very difficult time for us both as time started to affect her. Our love making changed as well as how often we did it as well. There was a lot I could have done and stopped and found a younger, healthier, and stronger animal. But, how much I loved her and respected her I could never do it.Yes, it was easy for me to open myself emotionally to her. I cried with her and she always comforted me. I told her how I felt and told her how much I cared for her daily. However, even as I spent 14 years with her, I did date in my species. It was very important though to me that they both met and see how they interacted together. All but 1 woman I saw did my mate like and even that took time. My mate was very jealous of human women. She would often climb on my lap and smoother me, making a physical barrier between myself and the other woman. It was also funny to watch my mate nip at my GF's ears when she saw us messing around. Nothing directly attacking, just her showing us that she didn't approve of it. I would like to someday meet a woman that not only is open to this lifestyle, but accepts it and enjoys it with me freely. God knows that at least my mother would stop pestering me about finding a woman to settle down with... It would be hard for me to say that I would spend my time equally 50/50 with each of them. With that, I would probably make one or the other jealous. Not to say I wouldn't be jealous myself if I felt I was being excluded out of the relationship time. Love is a funny thing afterall, it can build and destroy nations.May peace and love surround you all.HyBrithe Resurgam
QUOTE (killjoy08 @ Jun 26 2009, 03:08 PM) I'd personally like to hear from some of the women who visit this forum, how they feel about this thread. As I said in my posts, I am male so I could only offer the opinion of a male. Not to sound sexist but females tend to be more emotional by nature and I could see the term "love" coming up more often when they talk about their partners. It's often hard for a guy to say he loves some one and if it's easy, does he truly mean it? Some of us might be unable to admit our feels but are faced with them when our partners are done, you only realize what you had when you no longer have it.Also, this thread might be best answered by some one who is in both a zoo and a human/human relationship at the same time, be it with another zoo or a non-zoo. For them, they would have to consider how much time they spend with each partner, what level of interaction is there between each. We all know that dogs and other animals can't speak our language but who do you spend more time talking to? Who do you find yourself telling secrets to or confessing your feelings to? When you are sad/depressed/upset who do you turn to for comfort? For a guy, being emotional and letting your guard down might feel safer around your animal partner as many men are raised to think some emotions are "weak" and you shouldn't let any one see. How often have you cried where others can see you, specially your human partner?Lastly, some say "I got it solely for sex" but as I pointed out, is that 100% true? Is sex the ONLY interaction you have with the animal? Do you feed it/water it? Do you take it to the vet when its ill? Do you shelter it? Do you brush it? I don't mean to anthropomorphize animals but when you do and compare the care you offer them to the care you would offer a human mate, is it really that different? When you take a wife, she moves into your house (usually) and when you get a pet, they move in as well. If you work and your wife takes care of the house, you are providing the food for her just as you would for your pet. If she's sick it's up to you to take her to the hospital (since you have the money/insurance) just as you would have to take your pet to the vet. NO I am not trying to say women are pets or objectify them in any way, I am simply making an analogy in a way that's easy to understand. Whether or not you realize it, your relationship to your pets is similar in many ways to a relationship with a spouse, even pets you don't have sex with. HAHA what is it about my name that it sounds like a guys i wish it was more girly lol Im a 21yr f. I live in south texas and i am a zoo and was at one point in a relationship with a human, so not exactly zoo exclusive. I dont have anything against this thread, as i have mentioned before i believe as long as the animal is taken care of and treated like a pet rather than a sex to then thats ok. there is no need to have a high emotional level for you pet as some zoos would have, my dog grew on me because i have been single for so long. I do have a person on mind and i find my self talking to him more than i do my dog. Im an open person i believe in honesty and if there is an issue thats on my mind i dont confide it to my dog i speak with the person. but if the point comes to that i dont want to see that person yes i turn to my dog and i talk to my dog. To me, men arnt very comforting when feeling sad. Even though dogs cant say "its ok everything will be alright" theres nothing better then feeling that you are loved by something or someone. and for the record i cry all the time im VERY emotional but not exaggerated. Again zoophilia and bestiality are different. on your last note killjoy, hopefully sex isnt the only form of interaction that people have with the dog. they still have responsibilities to take care of their pet. even though they are similair to that of a responsibility for, lets say a human child, doenst mean they have to be loved like a human. I see my dog as my partner as i would with a human rather then just a pet. I have other male dogs, but i dont put them as high on an emotional level as i do with my main man, they are simply my pets and same goes with my female. but i love then groom then feed them play with them every time that i need.
I am ok with ppl that dont have an emotional bond with their dog and have sex. BUT as long as they care about it and they not misstreat it. I dont like ppl that just have sex and after that they dont care about their dog, forgeting to feed it or just keep it locked somewhere.
dont mean to throw off the subject but what about puppy mills when all they use their dogs is for breeding. yes they are fed and what not, but they dont hardly have any interaction with people at all so its not entirely impossible for a dog to be used just for sex when they can be locked some where used for breeding.
QUOTE (Horndawgs110503 @ Jun 26 2009, 10:21 PM) dont mean to throw off the subject but what about puppy mills when all they use their dogs is for breeding. yes they are fed and what not, but they dont hardly have any interaction with people at all so its not entirely impossible for a dog to be used just for sex when they can be locked some where used for breeding. puppy mills is a big subjext. What they do is so cruel and bad, they just use dogs for money and when they are no more needed they just throw them out like nothing. The problem is that many ppl dont know about what is happening there.Those things should have closed but they have a lot off money to be closed by law. The only way is ppl learnabout it and go close it themselves but then what happens to so many dogs that are in there. Someone who loves dog must take the leadership in these things or else it is just a suffering camp for dogs.How much i would love to kill these ppl that torture weak animals for profit but then by the stupid law i must go to prison
yes what they do is cruel but i was just saying that people can do the same when just having a dog for sex and not really care for it. just feed it and have sexual interaction with it. i wouldnt doubt it that someone has done that. but i know people here we love and vaule our pets whether we keep them at that level or see them as something more
I tend to agree with energy on most points. "We are all individuals and each with different needs."
QUOTE (st benard @ Jun 27 2009, 04:18 AM) I tend to agree with energy on most points. "We are all individuals and each with different needs." exactly but how we take care of those needs varies.
I agree we all have different needs from any kind of relationship sexual or otherwise, human or non human. But what I think the OP was trying to get at was that he/she felt there was some quintessential superiority of being emotionally involved with your animal lover, versus saying just enjoying sex with them and having no real romantic bond with them. Personally I think its a losers game to try and split hairs over who's a true zoo versus a true beastie. In the end it serves nothing but to divide our community, such as it is. Nor does it legitimize one stance versus another in the eyes of non zoos/beasties. All the non zoo/beasties in the world think of us all the same anyways.
Hi Guys, Im a newbee AND female so here goes.I wanted to try sex with a dog because I wanted the experiment !!My emotions didn't come into it ( until I came ) then it was frantic - enjoyment I mean. What it has done to my emotions is that the experience has ADDED to my outlook. I don't "love" the dog, I love my boyfriend because we are human. I "care" greatly about the dog and try to give him a lovely life.I am not in any way "hung up" now that I have tried it, it was fascinating in many ways which I won't bore you with unless you ask. I will definitely do this regularly now as it is fantastic. It remains to be seen if my emotions become affected the more sex I have with Bruno ( the dog ) For me it is just sex, and I feel that it is the same for Bruno - he doesn't care if I orgasm, he just wants to orgasm himself and if the first time was anything to by he orgasms a lot - or maybe he doesnt - perhaps I orgasm ( cos Im human ) and he just comes ( because he is a dog )Any clearer guys ?
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