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Hello! I tried searching but couldn't find any topics on this subject. Hopefully this isn't a repeat - if it is, I apologise. I was thinking today, while collecting a stallion at work, about why intact male horses bite mares on the neck during mounting. If you take a look at image I've attached, you can see I've done a quick and dirty photoshop job on the area in question (I can't remember who the handsome Fjord stallion is; boy are those little horses my weakness!). In this little triangle is Cranial Nerve XI, or the accessory nerve. When pressure is placed on this nerve, it irritates the horse (mare, stallion, or gelding it doesn't matter), and provokes the animal to stop, raise the head, and hollow through the back and croup (the loin). Which, if you imagine it, is exactly what the stallion needs the mare to do, physically, to make his job easier.I'm not sure if this is at all helpful to those of you that play with mares, or if anyone would want to experiment with it for "authenticity's sake" in your courtship of a mare, but I thought I would share it, anyway.
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I'm not into horses at all, but that is interesting info indeed. I always thought it was just some sort of dominance assertion thing.
QUOTE (Thebullfrog @ Jul 16 2008, 01:28 AM) I'm not into horses at all, but that is interesting info indeed. I always thought it was just some sort of dominance assertion thing. There is probably a psychological side effect, as well. Because the nerve stimulation triggers the mare to stand still, it tells the brain that the stallion is exerting dominance. Horses don't dominate each other through the actual act of kicking and biting; the actual power exchange comes from controlling the other horse's feet: if you control the horse's feet, by either making them move or making them stand still, you control the horse.
It also acts as a neck twitch, and as a method of balance. I don't think that paticular nerve complex has anything of paticular importance. Its neat to see that it happens to have that accessory reason.As a side note, I've never seen a mare stop moving once the stud bit. If she stops its because she balances herself or gets into it.
QUOTE (PonyStud08 @ Jul 16 2008, 02:17 AM) It also acts as a neck twitch, and as a method of balance. I don't think that paticular nerve complex has anything of paticular importance. Its neat to see that it happens to have that accessory reason.As a side note, I've never seen a mare stop moving once the stud bit. If she stops its because she balances herself or gets into it. I've received this information from a few vets, so I feel fairly comfortable with it. Plus, if you try it out yourself, you can provoke a bit of this reaction. First the horse raises it's head, you get a little tail wringing, some stepping away, and then the horse will generally stop moving. And, as you said, it acts as a "neck twitch" which, if you recall, will generally encourage a fidgety horse to stop moving. As another illustrative image - think of a horse with a poorly fit saddle, what do you get? Impingement on that nerve, which leads to the horse being reluctant to go forward, with head up and back hollowed out.
I'm not into horses, but I found the information interesting . Thanks
I wonder if this is similar to why cats (particularly lions) bite the neck/shoulders of their mates.I think with cats it's more to keep the female in place though, since usually she isnt entirely willing to get screwed =P
As others have said not all horse bite the mare but having said that it is a common practice amongst the equine spices. I have asked a few other I know in the veterinarian field who say that it is just one of those things the stallion does to enforce his dominance over the female.
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intruiging..kinda a turn on
If you pinch in other places you get the same responce.... that's why I don't think that paticular area has any special meaning. Same with the saddle... you can press hard in the middle of their back and get the same pain and hollowness. I think its the action, not the location, which causes the responce. And as I said, with the hundreds of breedings I've done, the mare rarely stops moving just because the stallion bites.
But they also nibble at each other there on greeting, that's where my hand goes when I greet a horse face-to-face (actually the horse's head is hanging over my shoulder). They have a tendency to stand still for mutual grooming, anyway.From that point to the base of the tail, along the spine and the muscles next to it, is where I give the most forceful rubs. The rest of the body can be stroked and gently rubbed, but along that backbone I can grind as hard as I can, until my fingers are tired, and the horses love every bit of it.This is one reason why I say an eeel stripe is a navigation aid.
QUOTE (Thebullfrog @ Jul 15 2008, 08:28 PM) I'm not into horses at all, but that is interesting info indeed. I always thought it was just some sort of dominance assertion thing. Exactly what I thought too.This is interesting information, whitetail. Thanks for sharing.
QUOTE (PonyStud08 @ Jul 16 2008, 11:45 AM) If you pinch in other places you get the same responce.... that's why I don't think that paticular area has any special meaning. Same with the saddle... you can press hard in the middle of their back and get the same pain and hollowness. I think its the action, not the location, which causes the responce. And as I said, with the hundreds of breedings I've done, the mare rarely stops moving just because the stallion bites. I definitely see what you're saying, and I think I maybe should've worded my initial post a bit better (sorry, 15 hour work days take their toll on my brain!).Certainly, the dorsal area I'm speaking of is not the only area on a horse that can illicit the "uncomfortable" response (head raised, back hollowed, croup lowered, etc etc). I definitely agree with you, there - there's a million places you can irritate a horse through light pressure and create the same response. I wasn't trying to convey that this is the only place that can get a horse to pause, lift their head, hollow their back.As for the saddle - this is precisely what I mentioned, earlier: a poor fitting saddle usually impinges on this location (right behind the shoulder/against the scapular cartilage), and creates this response (that some misinformed owners label as just a "bad attitude" in the horse).QUOTE But they also nibble at each other there on greeting, that's where my hand goes when I greet a horse face-to-face (actually the horse's head is hanging over my shoulder). They have a tendency to stand still for mutual grooming, anyway.From that point to the base of the tail, along the spine and the muscles next to it, is where I give the most forceful rubs. The rest of the body can be stroked and gently rubbed, but along that backbone I can grind as hard as I can, until my fingers are tired, and the horses love every bit of it.This is one reason why I say an eeel stripe is a navigation aid.Horses are remarkably sensitive to types of touch, I feel. For example, I know so many horses who won't move forward to a firmly applied whip, but will happily trot on off of a gentle whisper of a leg against their side. They know very well the emotion behind physical touch, and whether that touch is being delivered in anger or affection, and everything in between. For instance, many horses actually enjoy having their lips and gums massaged. But in terms of a hand twitch, a lip twitch, a chain - you get the picture.And I think every horse is an individual, of course. Some are more sensitive to things than others, some seem more in the primate mindset while others still function more in their equine instinctive minds.
Yes, a light touch on the body makes them twitch like an insect landed on them. Be gentle around the face and ears and genetalia, but otherwise when you massage them you generally use more force than a human would enjoy.And the lips, those thick velvety lips, flecked with sweet grass ... that's how a horse says Hello. On this board we talk a lot about doing things to animals, but when you're in the herd the animals do things to you, too. So you stand and let them investigate you with those lips - did I mention they're thick and velvety and warm? Another thing about the mutual grooming, you can set off a chain reaction if the horses are standing within reach of each other. Scritch one, and in response it starts nibbling on another, who starts nibbling on a third. Or you can get sandwiched between two of them mutually grooming, that's a great experience.One risk, though - when they are accustomed to you giving massage to their necks and shoulders, they will walk up and present that part of their body to you - which means there's a hoof landing somewhere very near your feet. Steeltoes pay off.
I've never worn a set of steel toes in a barn before... normally I collect stallions with sneakers. Oh yes I've broken toes many times, but usually only once per year.
I've even gone barefoot a few times, tricky but possible. Nothing like squishing a warm pile between the toes, much better than a cold pile. But wire fences are not fun under bare feet.
QUOTE (Barb Dyer @ Jul 17 2008, 05:38 AM) I've even gone barefoot a few times, tricky but possible. Nothing like squishing a warm pile between the toes, much better than a cold pile. But wire fences are not fun under bare feet. Wow XD But on the topic of the information, this is really neat to know! I've never had the chance at a horse, but if I ever do, I bet this will play a part somewhere .Thanks for the info! I love to learn!
QUOTE (PonyStud08 @ Jul 17 2008, 07:18 AM) normally I collect stallions with sneakers. So how much semen can a sneaker hold, compared to an AV?
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QUOTE (Barb Dyer @ Jul 17 2008, 08:41 PM) QUOTE (PonyStud08 @ Jul 17 2008, 07:18 AM) normally I collect stallions with sneakers. So how much semen can a sneaker hold, compared to an AV?
wow very interesting.... a good read!
Wow, I never really knew that!I would try that, but Im not a man Anyway, thanks for posting this!
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Like Ponystud, I've bred horses for decades (40 years). Never noticed any calming/arching back effect. In fact the Alpha mare wouldn't stand for it at all---bounced him right off, and didn't let him on until he quit it. I had to lay my hand on her neck to remind him not to, or she wouldn't get bred that year. Some people use leather collars on their mares necks to keep the stallion's teeth off.I have noticed a skilled stallion using the mare's neck to steer her to the right position under him, to keep her from turning from side to side between his legs. Gives him a sort of 3-point grip........
QUOTE (PonyStud08 @ Jul 17 2008, 06:18 AM) I've never worn a set of steel toes in a barn before... normally I collect stallions with sneakers. Oh yes I've broken toes many times, but usually only once per year. I wear flip-flops all the time, with never a broken toe. But none of my horses have shoes on, ever. (If you're collecting a stallion, a flip-flop holds a lot less than a sneaker..........)Mr. Heavyhorse has only about half of his natural tail, and can't reach the top of his back with it to get the flies off, so when he gets one of those huge black horseflies, he comes charging up at a full gallop and wheels his butt around in my face for me to smash it. THAT took a little getting used to....(He's over a ton and about this high *holding hand up over head* )
I've had lots of broken toes... usually one per year. Usually, once one heales, I do it again, lol. But that's regardless of if I'm wearing boots or sneakers. It is far safer to wear boots. Steel toes are a no-no though.
QUOTE (PonyStud08 @ Aug 3 2008, 07:54 AM) Steel toes are a no-no though. Why's that? I use them at work...... If something stupid happens (usually a group effort) it keeps equipment off your foot.
Because horses (and moreso cattle) can concentrate enough force on a very small portion of the toe to bend the steel.. I'll let your immagination finish the picture Anything that steel would be enough protection for thick leather will be enough too, so good solid leather workboots are just as good as steel toed for everything but the worst case, and the worst case with steel toes involves no longer being able to count to 20.
Now I know why my dates like biting so much
QUOTE (PonyStud08 @ Aug 3 2008, 06:16 PM) Because horses (and moreso cattle) can concentrate enough force on a very small portion of the toe to bend the steel.. I'll let your immagination finish the picture Anything that steel would be enough protection for thick leather will be enough too, so good solid leather workboots are just as good as steel toed for everything but the worst case, and the worst case with steel toes involves no longer being able to count to 20. Ever watch Mythbusters (Discovery channel)?*Asks the old fart who's never had a broken toe*
Yes... but I've also seen it happen
I always thought they bit so they can steady themselves. They've got hooves and not hands. And I also thought that the bite was a kind of 'kiss'??? If that makes any sense??It's amazing what you can if you keep looking.Good one!
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QUOTE (trailmaster99 @ Aug 6 2008, 03:50 PM) I always thought they bit so they can steady themselves. I've never been mounted by an adult equine, but a young colt once mounted me for a moment, and I can report that they definitely hug with the forelegs.If anything I'd suppose that this is one reason why the mares stand with their rear legs apart, to steady the pair side-to-side.
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You are very correct Trailmaster don't believe everything you read
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