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Noticed something interesting on TV, basically promoting for an upcoming episode of a TV show called "Undercover in Nederland" (undercover in the Netherlands) on a sort of talk show. I didn't catch much of it, all I noticed was a short undercover clip of a guy fencehopping and the "host" following him with a hidden camera. (Stop doing that people ) Anyway, the episode's description from its website:QUOTE Alberto Stegeman begaf zich het afgelopen jaar undercover in de wereld van bestialiteit, oftewel seks met dieren. De politieke discussie omtrent een algeheel verbod op dierenseks laait herhaaldelijk op. Maar nog nooit is er een dergelijk schokkend en realistisch beeld gegeven van deze wereld, die totnogtoe angstvallig verborgen werd gehouden. Alberto Stegeman spreekt af met liefhebbers van dierenseks. Ze vertellen voor de verborgen camera wat hen bezielt om seks te hebben met bijvoorbeeld honden of paarden. Het is voor de meesten de eerste keer dat ze hun geheim delen. De liefhebbers van seks met dieren zijn geobsedeerde getrouwde mannen, homoseksuele mannen en hetero stellen. Alberto gaat zelfs met één liefhebber de weilanden in op zoek naar geschikt vee.A quick translation:QUOTE Alberto Stegeman has spent te last year undercover in the world of bestiality, or simply put having sex with animals. The political discussion on the matter of a complete ban on bestiality is a recurring one. But never before has such a shocking and realistic image been made of this world, which was kept secret up until now. Alberto Stegeman arranges to meet with animal sex lovers. In front of a hidden camera, they tell what has gotten in to them that makes them want to have sex with, for example, dogs or horses. For most of these people, it is the first time that they share their secret. The animal sex lovers are obsessed married men, men and hetero couples. Alberto even goes out with one animal lover in to the fields to find suitable cattle.For those that are Dutch, the episode is scheduled for April 29th, 21:55 on SBS6. That's a Sunday.What I personally make of it so far: I cannot agree with fencehopping and if he's judging that, I'll agree with him. But if it is as it is said and he's just getting random people to confess their love for animals on candid camera and then showing that on TV, I find that rather low. If I could, I'd record the show for you people - but I don't have the equipment for it. I'll still try to catch it though, I am curious.edit: Some more "info" on the episode from the front page:QUOTE Een van de afleveringen die voor veel ophef zal zorgen, is die waarin de undercoverjournalist laat zien dat er in Nederland een scene bestaat van mensen die seks hebben met dieren. In de uitzending ontmoet Alberto Stegeman deze liefhebbers van dierenseks. Stegeman schetst een onvoorstelbaar, maar vooral realistisch beeld van deze wereld die - totnogtoe - angstvallig verborgen werd gehouden.Quick translation:QUOTE One of the episodes which is sure to cause quite a stir, is the one in which our undercover journalist shows that there is a scene in the Netherlands of people that have sex with animals. In this episode, Alberto Stegeman meets these animal sex lovers. Stegeman paints a hard to imagine, but above all realistic image of this world that was - up until now - kept secret.
hmm interesting, wish it was to be aired on uk tv
We can only hope that he does try to make it ralistic, and that he does not (as journalists often do) forcus on one part of the subject, like fencehopping.I can't recieve that channel either, but we will hear about that documentary, no doubt.
Please capture it on vhs or dvd if you can. Someone somewhere in Europe will be able to digitize it for the rest of us. Thank you very much for ther translations. We are all very interested.Thank You
I already programmed my HD recorder hehe thx for the tip!
I should note, the Dutch government has banning bestiality high on the agenda again. I would not be surprised if this documentary has, behind the scenes, been a major driving force behind this renewed interest.The renewed talk of a ban is annoying me anyway, especially because it seems this time they might actually push it through, but I am not sure what I can do about it. I cannot really risk exposing myself due to my line of work and I am not sure what one anonymous person can do.
While I think the program may be interesting I cant see it being shown in anything but bad light. Someone is going around earning the trust of zoo's for personal gain, I think its going to be bad news for all of us. Plus you have to consider that the so called journalist has been posing as a member of the zoo community. If he had asked for people to come forward to share their stories I wouldnt be so worried but the fact he has been doing it sneakily makes me think he is looking to 'out' zoophiles and paint them as abusers
QUOTE (shylark @ Apr 19 2007, 12:37 PM) While I think the program may be interesting I cant see it being shown in anything but bad light. Someone is going around earning the trust of zoo's for personal gain, I think its going to be bad news for all of us. Plus you have to consider that the so called journalist has been posing as a member of the zoo community. If he had asked for people to come forward to share their stories I wouldnt be so worried but the fact he has been doing it sneakily makes me think he is looking to 'out' zoophiles and paint them as abusers couldnt agree more Shylark...Unfortunately..this sounds just another attempt at a naff program..that highlights the bad points *as all the media do about any anything* and will just knock opinion about the subject even further back into the dark ages... if thats even possible with the already narrow & closed minded approach / views of the public..and so called experts...
That annoys me, too. He gets people to trust him, tell VERY personal things and then not mention they're being filmed and put it on TV. Now, knowing the show, the people's privacy will be protected to some extent (face blurred, perhaps voice warped) - but it's still a very ugly thing to do in my opinion.
Sure sounds of shady journalism, however, if it gets on film, it can be shown. Is there any way of educating the zoophiles to this technique? There's gotta be something. Is "word of mouth" quick enough, or fast enough? Is there any other way to get the word out that this guy is "poison" to the Zoo community?
Well, it's too late anyway, it has already been filmed and I doubt he'll make a second episode for it. Though, who knows.
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I hope this low down skunk at least blurs out the peoples faces. This is about the lowest thing I've ever heard of. If he is going to air video of someone without their permission, it's the least he could do. The devastation this could cause to people's life... their friends, and family is beyond description. I don't agree with fence hopping, but I doubt that that is all he is going to show. I hope whoever he is, he isn't a member here. What a totally despicable person. Pet
Like so many of the "new pushes" here, in the US, to make bestiality illegal, I see it as a set up. These people will go to the deepest ends, to get their way-I say the show, is staged. Cow_Poke
QUOTE ...Alberto Stegeman arranges to meet with animal sex lovers. In front of a hidden camera, they tell what has gotten in to them that makes them want to have sex with, for example, dogs or horses... I don't like the sound of that... Especially "In front of a hidden camera, they tell what has gotten in to them" leads one to think that there is something "wrong" with us. I can't imagine how this could possibly turn into a good thing for anyone but the writer. We'll see how it plays out I guess, but I think we all know how it's going to go...
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There was a very negative biased article in a danish paper that set animal love = animal brothels. I wrote the jurnalist who had made that article and offered her a interview. We did so, and she vooled somewhat down, and even wrote a second article in a different light. I think she realized that she had just been used as a tool by the anti-zoo movement.If someone could write that channel, and offer them a second point of view....? Write that journalist, and offer him that second point of view. let him know, between the lines, that some other journalist could do the ob as well. Journalists are professional cannibals. Another journalist would not hesitate to drag him into the dirt, least of all if he is employed by a competitor. If he is a pro, he will know.
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QUOTE (Cow_Poke @ Apr 20 2007, 03:17 AM) Like so many of the "new pushes" here, in the US, to make bestiality illegal, I see it as a set up. These people will go to the deepest ends, to get their way-I say the show, is staged. Cow_Poke Though I firmly believe there is a link between the renewed talk of a ban on bestiality and this upcoming episode, I have no doubt about it being real. I've seen episodes of it before and it deals with all kinds of subjects, but I've never seen any sign of it being staged.They do try and make it very sensational though. Like he has managed to discover a world that is kept so secret it would've taken the secret service to figure it out. That you can find forums like this in five seconds with google isn't mentioned.
If he actually does reveal some sort of real animal abuse it would be OK with me, but the long distance transports with animal cross Europe go on, and nobody cares. OK lets face it, there are animal abusers in the beastiality community too, if he reveal something there, let it be so.The article on animal brothels that was written here did have some good spinoff too, the brothels got cold feet.What could be the bad result is that the world outside thinks this is the only agenda. Who has the courage to answer back? QUOTE That you can find forums like this in five seconds with google isn't mentioned.Maybe the s key on his 'puter does not work. beatforum.com does deal with something quite different Least thing he could have done was to give some, or at least one of his wictims the opportunity to explain themselves.zon grote oelerwapper Ok, let's see the programme first.
Well I think the problem with that is, he won't delineate between the abusers and the larger group of our kind that don't abuse our lovers. Blatant, black and white, abuse is sensational, whips up emotions, and gets big ratings. The problem is our community, like any other has many shades of gray. But I fear our whole lifestyle will be categorized as black and white, with the intent, or at least insinuation that all zoos and beasties are abusers of one ilk or another. Besides, I truly doubt he's going to air all the secret footage he taped, only the most sensational parts that fit the point he's trying to make.
Well, I guess that's one problem with the media. They decide what picture they want to paint. But, I'll wait with judging it until I see it.
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Whatever is on the media we often be praising about it. Sense the media is the way its is, its going to be bad news for zoos in general and another slap in the face to the zoos who don't hurt animals. But what the heck, I guess we have to wait to find out what the outcome is going to be......
QUOTE (Tabby104 @ Apr 23 2007, 05:29 AM) But what the heck, I guess we have to wait to find out what the outcome is going to be...... That's it. I hope someone here is able to record that "documentary". If I get the chance to see it, I would write a letter to those folks who made it and tell them what this could also be about. No big problem if it is in dutch.
Let's hope this isn't one of those "documentaries" the media loves, everything is black or white, and if the majority of people doesn't like it, then it is wrong!, or even worse, since talk shows are usually staged to shock people.Besides, Talk shows are worth crap, most of those are staged, the people going there is payed to play the part, I had news from a local show here in mexico where they payed extra $50 about 5 USD, to the actors for each time one beated the otherone, obviously they allways had the good suffering woman/family and the evil drunk, cheating, beating and so on and so forth husband (allso a loved telenovela theme), if they want shock value they will pay an actor to say crap like "yeah, every little four legger is in danger!, we assault everything with hair!, we are sexual mainiacs that can't controll themselves ha ha ha!".I believe that TV in all the world must stay with the "standard good" society, example, if you ask a hooker to speak on TV she must be way ugly, a must be obviously girly, a thieve must look like a mugger and so on, so people believes that evil people is ugly.
Well, it's not even remotely a talk show and I am pretty sure nobody was paid.
Noticed the attached article in the Dutch newspaper "Metro" today (which is published for free in various countries). I'll translate for those that don't speak Dutch (most of you).QUOTE "New law against bestiality will be there quicker."BESTIALITY - "The images of Undercover in the Netherlands will most certainly speed up the political process. The lawmakers have to act now.", so says Marriane Thieme, fraction leader of the Party for the animals in regard to the episode to be aired coming Sunday of Undercover in the Netherlands dealing with the matter of sex with animals.Journalist Alberto Stegeman infiltrated the world of bestiality and shows conversations with people who are involved in it. Sex with animals isn't a crime yet in the Netherlands, unless the animal dies or becomes "unuseable". Soon the second chamber of parlement will discuss a law proposal by the PvdA. They want to ban bestiality. The episode, which Metro has seen, is shocking but contains no footage of actual sex with animals. Stegeman pretends to be interested in bestiality and engages in conversations with several men and a woman. One of them says: "The horse wanted it as well."ERIK JONKSome notes:-Party for the Animals: a small Dutch political party with animal welfare as their main issue.-PvdA: Party of the Workers. A party with socialist viewpoints in the Netherlands. Part of the ruling government.-It is mentioned that sex with animals is not a crime "unless the animal dies or becomes unuseable". This is incorrect, if the animal is hurt or injured it will qualify as animal abuse and it will also be illegal. Apparantly, the newspaper Metro did not find this worth mentioning.I was going to write my own comments on the article, but I'll leave up to you to decide.
Well, the documentary aired. I sadly had nothing to record it with so I haven't.There was one guy interviewed, a couple, and a male fencehopper.The first guy seemed a decent person. He was only interested in male dogs and "just" wanted a male dog to do him anally. The couple was also looking for a male dog, and here also I saw no sign of abuse. The fencehopper I have no respect for. He seemed to care mainly for his own satisfaction than for the animal's welfare or anyone else's. Sadly, this guy got 75% of the whole "show".I am extremely annoyed this single fencehopper, who regretted horses aren't tied up as often anymore, as it made his life harder, got almost all of the attention. Yes, find the poorest example you can find and give him all the attention.
WTF, i am shocked i just saw it.....I created a new post about it http://www.beastforum.com/showtopic-102614.html
My topic was locked, i understand. I will post my data here thenwas Shocked!! Today on SBS6 in the netherlands there was a docu about "bestaliteit" Aka animalsex.There is a confllic because there is a raising level in interest in the netherlands in animalsex, and some people in the coverment think it should be forbidden.But....how they think about us, they think we are psyicomaniacs, totaly lose from this world, i was shocked! Because i am a normal boy, never had any wierd problems, girl friend, just a normal life, and they say that people who had no friends, live lonly, have psycho problems etc only get involved in this "dirty" buisness.And they think that all animalsex loves mis-use there animals, beating, etc but thats total bullsh*t, most people have deep feelings about animals and the last thing they would do is beat them wacko.gif.I had to say that one person i this docu was kinda pushy, he forced a stallion once to had anal sex...thats wrong ofcourse.There are ofcourse people who beat, mis-use animals and have sex with them, and that is verry wrong.But back to buisness, this docu. isnt correct because i think it give a wrong image about animalsex and i am verry sad and angry!. sad.gif
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Nothing u can do.... period...something the media always does...and governments in general... on any topic,,if its to their advantages they will always pick up on and focus mainly on the negative side of things.... Even if 99.99% of Zoos as we know...normal people...who care and love their animals deeply.. u just know theyre going to focus on the fence hoppers..and the bad people...hype that negative side and thus the negative feelings towards all who have sex with animals... and voila... u have bad feeling... bad press and new laws...
Well, I am seriously thinking of a counter-initiative. I'd just like some support, if just in word, from some more Dutch zoos. I have no real sexual experience when it comes to animals, hence I don't feel I'd be a great "voice" since I lack experience to talk from. Also, regardless of what I might do, it'll always be anonymous. I have a career in aviation, I won't risk losing that.
QUOTE (Cetacean @ Apr 29 2007, 10:07 PM) Well, I am seriously thinking of a counter-initiative. I'd just like some support, if just in word, from some more Dutch zoos. I have no real sexual experience when it comes to animals, hence I don't feel I'd be a great "voice" since I lack experience to talk from. Also, regardless of what I might do, it'll always be anonymous. I have a career in aviation, I won't risk losing that. Same here.
QUOTE (Cetacean @ Apr 29 2007, 02:07 PM) Well, I am seriously thinking of a counter-initiative. I'd just like some support, if just in word, from some more Dutch zoos. I have no real sexual experience when it comes to animals, hence I don't feel I'd be a great "voice" since I lack experience to talk from. Also, regardless of what I might do, it'll always be anonymous. I have a career in aviation, I won't risk losing that. how exactly can you counter if you wont reveal who you are?? not that I think you should... lol I would never do it... but I know in order to get things done in america .. well you have to be willing to come out and sign petitions and the like.. no one listens to an anonymous anything....
QUOTE (wyldfyre67 @ Apr 29 2007, 10:10 PM) how exactly can you counter if you wont reveal who you are?? not that I think you should... lol I would never do it... but I know in order to get things done in america .. well you have to be willing to come out and sign petitions and the like.. no one listens to an anonymous anything.... My current view is to write a letter to a large number of Dutch politicians, the media and various organisations and get support for it from as much Dutch zoophiles or people otherwise interested / supportive of it. I'd just want to give "our" point of view in it. E-mail can be done perfectly anonymous. The only problem remains that as long as it's anonymous, it loses part of its credibility - and you are very right there. But I am not willing to risk going public.I will risk meeting a journalist though. BUT, on my terms, on MY ground. I don't like being played with, I set the rules or it doesn't happen.
I just watched it, and it freaked me out!They called us freaks and people who are mentally distorded and that sort of sh*t! I am seriously offended by their statements!I dont get it, if they think its gross, they want to make it illegal, what a bunch of crap! So for instance: let's say if i'm a politician, and i hate people who have anal sex and i think it's gross, so let's make it illegal then! Thats the way they think!, and thats WRONG in MANY ways. I am 100% in for a law that protects animals from people who abuse them and hurt the animals, but if, for instance my wife/girlfriend wants to suck my dog, it's her choice and NOBODY has the right to judge that.Man, i'm still pissed after viewing the episode.. Knottingtool
QUOTE (knottingtool @ Apr 29 2007, 11:55 PM) I just watched it, and it freaked me out!They called us freaks and people who are mentally distorded and that sort of sh*t! I am seriously offended by their statements!I dont get it, if they think its gross, they want to make it illegal, what a bunch of crap! So for instance: let's say if i'm a politician, and i hate people who have anal sex and i think it's gross, so let's make it illegal then! Thats the way they think!, and thats WRONG in MANY ways. I am 100% in for a law that protects animals from people who abuse them and hurt the animals, but if, for instance my wife/girlfriend wants to suck my dog, it's her choice and NOBODY has the right to judge that.Man, i'm still pissed after viewing the episode.. Knottingtool And THIS is the one and only truth. !!!!!!!!!!!
QUOTE (Cetacean @ Apr 29 2007, 10:20 PM)QUOTE (wyldfyre67 @ Apr 29 2007, 10:10 PM) how exactly can you counter if you wont reveal who you are?? not that I think you should... lol I would never do it... but I know in order to get things done in america .. well you have to be willing to come out and sign petitions and the like.. no one listens to an anonymous anything.... My current view is to write a letter to a large number of Dutch politicians, the media and various organisations (...)If I may give some advise. You don't want to do that, Cetacean. At least: don't start a 'counter-initiative' in that way.My suggestion: just let it blow over. If you (or anyone ) starts any action now, you will just give the media a reason to focus on this item. And then with the danger the focus will be out of proportion.By the way people of the Netherlands were yesterday too concerned with the question which club would win the national soccer competition and today with celebrating Queensday... So if there is an issue, it doesn't play on a national level at the moment. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't say anything. If there comes a point we (or 'we': so many zoos, some many people, right? ) have to say something:In my opinion the best to approach is to fight the battle on their ground. Sorry, Cetacean, I put it this way , but I mean this:In the (so called) documentary there were two politicians. I must admit I am glad they were in it: at least two non-anonymous people (apart from the so called journalist-dude), people of flesh and blood! What they (the politicians) stated is interesting: they want to make new laws against animal abuse. Let 's ask them these questions:- since you come forward with your political standpoint with making laws against animal abuse, we now understand you will make an end to the bio-industry? (if they don't fully agree with that, you can throw in their face they are just a bunch of hypocrites)- can you point out what 's wrong with the current laws against animal abuse? These laws are clear and useful (especially the last feature is very handy for a law ). Now it seems you want to design new laws to express that you find people having sex with animals offensive- what's the next step? Laws against women walking the dog? Imprison men who get an erection when the cat accidently jumps on their lap? Holding suspicious vegetable in the supermarket?For what concerns the tv-station SBS that broadcasted the 'documentary'. This station is known for it's shady en shabby journalism. In other words: if there is any question of 'bad news' of being 'bad mouthed' (if thats how you say it in english) we all were know it comes from! So I would say: no worries!
please please please lets be careful to NOT start a political debate.. this isnt allowed..
QUOTE (bonzogonzo @ Apr 30 2007, 11:36 AM) If I may give some advise. You don't want to do that, Cetacean. At least: don't start a 'counter-initiative' in that way.My suggestion: just let it blow over. If you (or anyone ) starts any action now, you will just give the media a reason to focus on this item. And then with the danger the focus will be out of proportion.By the way people of the Netherlands were yesterday too concerned with the question which club would win the national soccer competition and today with celebrating Queensday... So if there is an issue, it doesn't play on a national level at the moment. I disagree, but I've sent you a PM to not take the debate here.
QUOTE (wyldfyre67 @ Apr 30 2007, 12:58 PM)please please please lets be careful to NOT start a political debate.. this isnt allowed.. Oh! I am sorry! And, thank you for your PM, Cetacean! I will respond to your PM.
This world exists by the fact that the majority of the people do not think it can happen.To argue the point is what the person wants you will give the people who did not think we actually do this a way to convence the general public we are here..Want to save usONE do not get cought by ANY ONE / Keep to your SELFTwo People do not need help to find this if they play with them selves they can play with there dog..Three Keep to your self shades down you know we have few people interested in this so stop testing people.. See Two above..You can not argue axceptance if you try you will get burned..Let it blow over..Rus
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